75. Finding Common Ground Between Christian and Secular Anarchists with Alan Mosley

About this Episode

Craig is joined by Alan Mosley, the host of “It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley”, historian and libertarian writer, for a friendly discussion about what Alan, an atheist and anarchist, has in common with Christian anarchists. They work through the anarchist catchphrase, “No rulers, no masters, no gods”, exploring its meaning and conclude that Christian and secular anarchists can, and indeed should, be allies in liberty. 

Alan could school some Christians in the teachings of Jesus, especially concerning holding an anti-war stance, the application of the non-aggression principle and disdain for institutional structures. The way Alan sees it, the church has been conquered by the state. Churches fly the American flag and teach the Christian voting block to hate their neighbors and enemies, in direct contrast to the teachings of Jesus. The Bible is full of revolutionary thoughts that, if applied, should transform societies just as they have in the past. 

Craig and Alan discuss everything from dropping bombs to end WWII, support for troops and how to improve their psychological well-being, judging the morality of historical characters from past eras, and things that make the church unappealing to unbelievers. Yet, they continuously come back to the need to speak the truth about all of these things courageously. 

Alan Mosley:

YouTube: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Facebook: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Twitter: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Apple Podcast: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Article: Ike and Leahy Were Right: The Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki Were Wrong

Episode Timestamps:

1:38 – Who is Alan Mosley?

• Podcast host

• Jazz musician

• Historian

• Writer

3:22 – What common grounds do atheists and Christian anarchists have?

• Anti-war

• Not interested in playing politics with war

• WWII and the atomic bomb

• Christian anarchists and libertarians are good on this topic

• The early church were pacifists and anti-war

• Christians should not defend war

• Christians should opt out until the government receivess no support for war

• We need to raise children on principles of non-aggression so they don’t join the military

• These need to be spoken of rather than ignored

• Police officers are trained in an us-versus-them mentality

• Churches teach this way too

• That was not in the teachings of Christ

• Supporting the troops is talking about the pressures that face them when they come home

• High suicide rates

• Participating in drone bombing pre-schools

• Improving their psychological well-being

• Stopping children from entering the recruiting offices

• Just following orders is not a good excuse

• It enables the bad ideas of angry rich men in DC to happen

25:27 - The state has conquered churches

• That’s what the American flag on the stage means

• The flag is a rival of Christ

• The state manipulates people through the state

• Turning you against your neighbor and enemy

• Making people afraid of the other team

• Creating a voting block

• Christians should be suspicious of the state; it killed Jesus

30:14 – Comparing morality through the ages

• It’s easy to look back and assume moral superiority over the founding fathers over their non-politically correct actions

• If you look at the state of the world now compared to earlier times, scripture was full of revolutionary ideas

• Live by the sword, die by the sword

• Might makes right was the ethos of humanities history

• The Bible is full of transformational thoughts

• Christian history is full of people giving their lives to defend their faith

• But these days, people won’t talk about their beliefs in case they are ostracized

34:55 – What makes the church unattractive to unbelievers?

• Not representing Jesus correctly

• Endorsing war and the state

• Not helping the poor and widows

• Unequivocal support for Israel’s war atrocities makes the church unappealing

• Warmongers in Israel don’t care about you even though your taxes pay their way

42:15 – The roots of liberty

• Anarchy is the root of liberty

• Christ made everyone with liberty

• Can anarchists serve Christ?

• More atheists are statists

• Alan says no enforced rulers, no enforced masters, no enforced gods

• True Christians are not for theocratic fascists

• Adding enforced to the catchphrase makes more sense

• Bible-thumping church-goers are insufferable

• Christian anarchists and secular anarchists should be allies in liberty

• Jesus was the OG anarchist

• Be charitable in attempting to understand your opponent’s worldview

• It helps build a community

• We should not be forced into relationships that we do not want to be a part of either

• Pick your battles

• Find the like-minded remnant

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70. Pawns of the Military-Industrial Complex with Jamie Cain

About this Episode

Jamie Cain, host of the Liberty Uninterrupted podcast, joins Craig to discuss the military-industrial complex as someone who lived as its pawn. Despite his father’s warning that he would not be fighting for freedom but rather for lobbyists and bankers, at 17 years old, liberty-loving Jamie joined the military. A few years later, Jamie left the military out of his love of liberty, having learned that war is a racket. Since then, he has had some success talking young people out of joining the military by exploring their reasoning for doing so and turning their patriotic logic on its head. Other times, shocking young people by being brutally honest is the only way, but Jamie is not scared of awkward conversations. 

With Craig equally likely to blow up comfortable public narratives, these two could write the book on conversations guaranteed to ruin Thanksgiving dinner! In this episode, they share their views on the military-industrial complex, its propaganda, recruiting and indoctrination techniques. The Military-Industrial Complex is the murdering wing of the state. It indoctrinates and enslaves young Americans as pawns in wars for the financial gain of special interest groups and politicians. 

Craig and Jamie envision a world where America’s competitors act the way America has, policing the world in the name of democracy, bombing critical infrastructure and setting up occupying forces and military bases. Of course, if anyone tried it, Americans would be rightfully angry. With military recruitment figures at crisis levels, maybe after 20 years of illegal wars it is time to bring the troops home.

Connect with Jamie:

Website

• Instagram

• Twitter

• Facebook

• Practical Christology

• TikTok

Liberty Uninterrupted podcast on:

• Apple

• Spotify

• YouTube

Episode Timestamps:

2:23 – Who is Jamie Cain?

• Podcast host at Liberty Uninterrupted 

• Voluntaryist with a libertarian podcast

• Joined the military at 17 years old

• War is a Racket – Major General Smedley Butler

• Dad’s advice at the start of his military career:

  • Remember that you are not fighting for freedom

• Wanted to join the army since he was seven years old

• Rich people all over the world send the poor to fight their wars

  • After getting rich from taxes

  • Their children do not join the military

9:15 – Why shouldn’t people join the military?

• The praise that military men receive helps keep people signing up

• Financial benefits help too

• More veterans have committed suicide than soldiers died in Afghanistan

• Military men believe they are doing the right thing

• Shaming soldiers is not going to change their mind

  • They don’t sign up to fight proxy wars

    • Or to support the Military-Industrial Complex

    • Or to be used as war game pawns

• Shame the Military-Industrial Complex, not the people involved

  • They don’t get to choose the jobs they do

    • End up in military prison if they refuse a job

• Soldiers sign a contract to become the state’s property

  • Even state military guards are misused

• During covid, citizen’s liberties were restricted but no help came from the military

• After six years, Jamie realized he had been lied to

  • Clung to protecting his buddies

• Jamie was woken up by Ron Paul in 2012 Presidential Election speeches

  • Said invading Iraq and Afghanistan was wrong

  • Talked about why the Middle East hated Americans

  • Read The Revolution: A Manifesto – Ron Paul

• Ron Paul’s “Giuliani Moment”

• We should write a book on how to ruin Thanksgiving dinner

• The United States Government has killed a holocaust worth of people

• The Middle East are angry because we are occupying their land

  • Children dying

    • Bombing hospitals

    • Bombing water supplies

    • Bombing weddings

  • Imposing sanctions

• We are not a “Christian Nation.”

  • Anarchism is what Jesus would do

• What would happen if other nations treated Americans the way we treat the Middle East?

  • We would not remain peaceful

• The US made Al-Qaeda recruitment easy through:

  • Drone strikes

  • Dropping bombs

  • Killing families

19:54 – Everyone has a man crush on Ron Paul

• Christians don’t vote

• Even Ron Paul, who:

  • Used the platform honorably

  • Woke many people up

  • Influenced culture

  • Used the system against itself

• If Ron Paul couldn’t change the system, no one can

• Anarchists don’t vote

• The state and military are backed by Satan

• Power corrupts even the best of intentions

  • Be it political or military

• Jamie’s dad’s speech annoyed him

  • But it helped him to understand Ron Paul’s words

  • Left him open to the truth

38:30 - Should we pull the troops back and simply defend the US?

• No one is going to come and kill Americans

  • There are 400 million guns in the US

• Taking guns from everyone does not make sense

  • More money and power will go to the state

  • Gun control is a means of controlling people

• Other countries have no interest in attacking the US

  • There is no advantage to doing so

    • Scott Horton and anitwar.com

• We can’t put military bases across the world without upsetting some people

  • There is no such thing as peacekeeping soldiers

  • They appear as an occupying force

• Our government is our biggest threat

  • China isn’t taking half my pay

  • China is not taking our guns away

  • China is not killing my neighbour for smoking weed

• Those who don’t vote have the right to complain about who is in power

  • Voters give power to the system through participation

  • They love it when their side is in control but not when the opposition has power

• Murray Rothbard – For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto

48:55 – Talking young people out of joining the military

• Jamie meets a lot of young people

  • They ask him for advice regarding joining the military

  • He asks them, “Why do you want to join the military?”

    • Establishes their reasoning

  • Often they say it because they feel they should

    • This is due to propaganda

  • Follow-up questions revolve around their answers

    • If they say they feel that they should, he asks “Do you come from a patriotic family?” and “What’s so patriotic about joining the military?”

  • Maybe it is more patriotic to stay home and build communities and families

    • Use their own reasoning and apply it to them not joining up

  • “What’s so exciting about getting your leg blown off for oil?”

  • Blow up their narrative

  • Every war since WWII that the US has been involved in is illegal under the constitution

  • Who wants to kill people they don’t even know?

54:58 – Do the police help?

• They didn’t prevent the slaughter of children in Uvalde

• The Supreme Court says they have no duty to protect anyone

• In an anarchist society, there is no monopoly on protection services

• Covid proved that police exist to protect the state

  • And politicians

• Libertarian views might not be socially appropriate

  • But we should open our mouths anyway

  • Be honest

• The military treats individuals like trash

  • Pawns in wars

  • No life skills outside the military

    • People get stuck

1:00:19 – We won’t all agree

• If you ask Craig a question, you will get his honest answer

• People do not all agree

  • If a voluntary society came tomorrow, people would still argue philosophy

  • Life is not black and white – Craig

  • There’s room for nuance – Jamie

• The military-industrial complex is the murdering wing of the state

  • It’s using Americans to build an agenda

• The Army military recruitment is down tremendously

  • Go woke, go broke

  • 20 years of war might have woken people up

  • The military has a serious recruiting problem – Congress must fix it

  • If numbers are down, will something new happen to make people patriotic?

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59. Jesus, Memes, War, and Canadian Truckers with Nathan Chavoya, Tony & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

For episode 59 of the podcast, Craig is joined by (sometimes) co-host Abby Cleckner for a conversation with fellow podcasters, Nathan Chavoya and his co-host Tony, to talk about the power of memes, their podcast Reality Czars, and, of course, Jesus.

We covered a wide variety of topics in this episode, from why we use memes to Amish communities and the pros and cons of Trump supporters. As always, it comes back to the question of: What Would Jesus Do? Whether we’re considering people who don’t want to listen, Canadian truckers, Ukraine and Russia, the Mexican border, war and Christianity, the indoctrination of the church, or conservative Amish communities – in everything, we must follow the example of Jesus.

Nathan is the social media manager for The Bad Roman Project. He makes a lot of the memes you see on our page. You can find Nate and Tony's show and where to connect with them via their link tree (content warning for all of their media: profanity, crude humor, rude comments).

Episode Timestamps:

5:50 Why memes work

• People often seem to get more out of memes than the podcast

• Non-intrusive way to absorb an idea

• Can light a fire… maybe dose a red pill

  • Makes people read all day to learn more

  • Might change their entire perspective on the world

9:01 People who love to smell their own farts

• Some people just want to inform others how wrong they are

• Go on long rants

• You can’t do anything about it when they refuse your offered resources

  • They don’t really want answers

  • “I could tell you, but you're not listening to me anyway.” -Craig

• Saying, “You’re wrong” and writing a novel about why is not going to get you engagement

• Using tired information and arguments won’t convince anyone

• Proving you’re not interested in learning more about what you disagreed with shuts down the conversation

12:45 Canadian truckers

• “I see a bunch of statists running around out there waving their flags, trying to change the government and get the government to give them back their freedoms.” - Craig                                                       

  • We make fun of the patriot libertarians

    • But at least they’re doing something

      • Ancaps are sitting on their butts

      • Agorists are building their own markets and ignoring society

      • “I'm glad that there is some pushback.” - Nate 

      • Maybe they have the wrong approach, but at least theyr’e taking action

• Craig warned them to watch for feds/politicians trying to infiltrate their group

  • The feds are the dumb ones

    • There was a guy at the truck rally waving a Nazi flag

  • They literally all wear the same black boots

  • They try to paint any pushback as racist

    • It’s just normal folks saying, “Keep that crap away from me.”

• Trudeau called them harmful white nationalists

  • As they helped homeless people on the video behind his voice

  • There’s not just white people involved

• What is their goal? How does sitting there help?

  • Trudeau said all truckers must be vaccinated

    • Put a travel ban on unvaccinated

    • Even US truckers coming in must get the shot

    • In the US, like 60% of truckers are not vaccinated

  • They're holding a huge strike

    • Not shipping

    • Clogging up streets

  • People raised over $10 million on GoFundMe

    • It got refunded because the site refused to support the truckers

    • Another site stepped up and raised $3 million in 24 hours

  • Not directly hurting anyone

    • People won’t be able to get what they ordered

      • If there was no effect, what’s the point?

    • They have every right not to do their job

  • Some say it’s not really a grassroots movement

    • Most guys are there to fight the power

    • But it was the deep state’s idea

      • Elon Musk has created self-driving trucks

      • They are going to prevent humans from stopping shipment again by using computers instead

        • “Never again”

  • Wouldn’t it be more effective to just keep doing their jobs unvaccinated?

    • Instead of just sitting there waiting for the government to change its mind

    • People can refuse their shipments if they want

    • But it might have made less of a media splash

    • How could the government really enforce it? There’s too many of them

      • The laws wouldn’t mean anything anymore

  • Actually, a lot of the truckers are vaccinated

    • They’re still protesting with their brothers

    • They don’t believe anyone should be forced into it

    • In most realms of society, it’s the unvaxxed vs vaxxed, but these guys can still work together

    • They haven’t converted to the religion of COVID-19

    • They don’t see those without it as heretics

    • They just watch the news, and the news told them to get it

    • Most people don’t have access to alternative media

    • They’d been locked down for 2 years

    • Believed the vaccine would protect them, that they wouldn’t get COVID (not true), that they wouldn’t spread COVID (not true), and that the symptoms will be less bad (maybe?)

    • Realize they were duped, life didn’t go back to normal, we keep being told if we do just one more thing, it will all be over

    • How long will people continue doing the rain dance that doesn't bring any rain?

    • When will they say, “No! I don't trust you anymore.”

    • People are afraid to eat crow

    • They don't want to admit they were wrong, so they just continue to do what they're told and pretend to agree

24:47 The reality of COVID

• Some sort of virus definitely exists 

• It might not have actually been any worse than other years

  • The people in charge got to tell us what's causing deaths

    • They know how to manipulate statistics

  • Three years ago, if your grandma had cancer and diabetes, then got the flu and died, the flu would not be blamed

    • Almost everyone had 3 to 4 comorbidities

  • The average age of people who died from COVID was 81

    • The average age of people who die in America regularly is 79

• Theories on why it didn’t hurt most people

  • If they really made this in a lab, they didn't do a very good job

    • It didn't hurt very many people

    • It's all just a circus made to distract us

    • Or maybe they just weren't able to test it on average humans

      • Maybe they tested it on sickly populations and it wiped out a good chunk of those people

        • Prisoners low on vitamin D and will to live would get much sicker and be more likely to die

    • “They thought it was going to be really bad and were disappointed. So they had to start making up numbers.” - Abby

  • Psy-op 

    • Maybe it wasn’t about wiping out the population

    • Maybe it was about seeing what they could make us do

      • Even places who did not comply at first masked up for Omicron for some reason

        • Omicron meme example

29:18 Mandates

• Some counties in Tennessee tried to hold on to mask mandates

  • The state made them illegal at the county level

    • But schools were still free to choose

    • Craig’s friend’s kids were required to get vaccinated to go to school

      • Abby told her kids they wouldn’t be allowed to go if that happened

      • Nate and Craig would want to get violent if the school required that

        • Craig wouldn’t even stand for masks

    • People living in places where it’s not required are choosing to wear 2 masks and get jabbed

      • They’re scared

    • In Oregon, they forced all school staff to get the vaccine

      • A lot of teachers chose instead to get fired

      • Parents are all mad, but they do nothing

32:26 Schooling

• If we all got together and hired the fired teachers, we could have our own school

  • No more government indoctrination camp

  • No more teaching our kids weird things we don’t want them to learn

  • The unvaxxed teachers are more likely to align with our values

• Let’s come together and homeschool instead of getting our kids vaccinated so that they can be indoctrinated

33:52 Ukraine and Russia

• You have to look back at their history to understand

• Is the threat of war just posturing by Biden?

  • His guys supposedly killed an ISIS leader in Syria the other day

    • Some people say he wasn’t even a leader

    • So many innocent people died in that air strike

  • Is this also just something they’re saying to look good?

  • Biden’s popularity has been plummeting

    • Whenever that happens, they start talking about war

• It doesn’t look like Russia is wanting war

• History

  • Raegan and Gorbachev made an agreement that NATO would never extend east beyond Western Germany and the USSR would not come west of it

  • NATO has taken over many former USSR countries

  • Russia wants at least a buffer between themselves and NATO

    • That was Ukraine

    • They said if NATO came into Ukraine, they’d fight

• Who knows what will happen

  • We’re acting like the biggest bully

    • But are we?

    • We just turned tail and left Afghanistan

• What people are saying

  • Someone said, “Man, those democrats sure do like war”

    • Dude, the republicans continued several wars with Trump in office

    • You just gotta agree with them

      • Because that is true

      • Ask them questions: 

        • Why don’t they like war?

        • Find out their principles

      • Then ask them to be consistent when a republican comes to power

39:26 Border crossers

• Conversation Craig had

  • “Trump gave us a secure border”

  • “By locking kids in cages”

  • “But at least it was secure”

  • “I dunno; doesn’t seem Christlike”

  • *silence*

• Use, “IDK… WWJD?”

• Someone said, “Most of the kids in cages aren’t even related to any adults they came with. I’d rather my kid sit in a cage than be sex trafficked.”

  • Obama made some sort of rule that if you brought a kid with you, the US government would let you through no questions asked

    • So, lots of sex and drug traffickers used that to their advantage

  • They couldn't keep the kids and adults together because they were afraid of the kids being abused, especially since most of them were not with their parents

  • "I don't think the cages are the best solution still. Call me crazy." - Abby

• We just need to get rid of drug laws and borders, and most of these problems would be solved

• Why do people care if anyone comes over the border anyway?

  • What's so wrong about them looking for a better life?

  • People here don't want to work, so why can't they let someone else come do it?

  • So many people who oppose the border don't realize the people getting ahead in their precious capitalist system are bringing people over the border for cheap labor

    • They don't get held accountable, but Mom and Pop places do

  • Work visas

    • Families have to live off one income if one spouse is deported

  • “They’re so sweet; I don’t understand why we treat them like garbage.” - Craig

• Shoot ‘em

  • People want to have snipers on top of the wall picking crossers off

    • Because maybe then they’d think twice about coming over

  • There used to be a group who shot border crossers

  • They have similar attitudes towards Muslims

    • If they saw one with a backpack on, they’d shoot

      • How does one know a man is Muslim?

        • You’d have to do a little interview with him first

45:00 Evangelicals love war and destruction

• They’re the top demographic to support war, capital punishment, torture…

• How is that possible??

  • Maybe it started with one issue, like abortion, and once the Republican Party could control what they thought about that, they could control what they thought about everything else too

  • Conservative culture is more important to them than Jesus or liberty

    • They stick a Jesus fish on their car to prove their love

• Evangelicals will get mad at you when you say you don't support war 

  • They actually seem to equate being a Christian with supporting war

    • They don't see the conflict there

  • “I was that guy…It never dawned on me that murdering people was not what Christ wants us to do.” - Craig

  • There has to be some fascinating psychology behind that

    • Someone made a diabolical plan to cause it

• It’s taught in churches

  • Perhaps most strongly in Southern Baptist congregations

• But people can love their country without loving murder and theft

• The church was infiltrated

  • The first churches in early America were very anti-state

  • Maybe the desire for power was too strong and they combined with the state

  • Maybe they learned loyalty to the state from the Church of England

    • Or they were used to controlling the state through the church

  • The separatists coming from England had been persecuted by the Anglican Church and had no interest in being like them

51:51 Amish

• Were getting murdered by other denominations

• Fled to America

• Stuck their heads in the ground and became entirely separate

• Did not operate like England at all

• Some anabaptists are trying to convince the more conservative Amish groups to engage with the fringes of society

  • They’re so secluded they won’t even help people outside the church

• Their strict rules are a new form of oppression

• Treat their women like second class citizens

  • Jesus never talked about that

  • Maybe it’s an indoctrination

  • A lot of Muslim women say they like and choose their head coverings

• Some Amish communities kick their kids out into the world at 16-18 to let them decide for themselves

  • Some don’t and people flee

    • They send members after them like a Mormon cult

55:54 Reality Czars podcast

• Unscripted

  • Which is good because popular guests who usually repeat the same thing wind up sharing something new or funny

• Nate and Tony teamed up

  • Met at Squatchfest

  • Tony helped Nate kill some pigs for an anarchist animal butchering class

    • (he kind of expected to get killed because Nate’s standing their with a gun and HUGE pigs in the pen, and they were only acquaintances)

  • They had interesting conversations and decided to start a show

• Nate’s side hustle

  • Wife Abbey writes these show notes (hi)

  • He makes the memes

  • Abbey also does proofreading

• Nate’s baby

  • Is actually 8.5 months old now

  • Happily wears bow ties to church

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55. Is Taxation Slavery? with Patrick Carroll

About this episode

Have you ever wanted to take a Biblical journey through taxes? We are delighted to have Patrick Carroll back on the show today to talk us through an article he shared entitled: Taxation is Slavery: A Biblical Case. Patrick Carroll is a scholar, writer, and teacher of Biblical economic philosophy. He comments on current events from an anarchist perspective in his articles for Fee.org, where he's also involved with the Hazlitt Apprenticeship. Patrick has previously been on our show for episode 16, If You Vote, You Can't Complain, and has contributed multiple articles for syndication on our blog.

In this episode, we go through the Bible together and take a close look at where and when God took clear stands on taxation. What does our Bible study reveal? Taxation makes people into slaves. God never intended for us to have the government man has created. The kingdom of Heaven is upside down, and it is our job to spread His way of peace and love in the world to flip it back.

You learn more about Patrick and connect with him on Twitter, Facebook, and on his blog: The Prudent Navigator.

Episode Timestamps:

2:59 Is taxation slavery?

• Libertarians often say it’s theft, but is it worse than that?

• We need people to think and understand

• Canada is worse/more draconian than the US… at this point

• Most people scoff

• Slavery is when a person is owned by another human

  • Ownership is control of something

  • If we own an object, we can take it anywhere and do whatever we want with it

  • The state gets to decide what drugs we take, how we live our lives…

• We don’t have the brutal 1800’s style of slavery

  • But perhaps a more insidious current form

    • Savings are taxed away

    • Inflation

    • Regulations

    • Military Industrial Complex

    • Prison Complex

    • War on drugs

    • Not as visible, but still there

• The state is good at hiding it

  • But they claim to give us our rights

    • Our rights come from God

      • We’re created with them

6:00 Human government

• 1 Samuel 8

  • The Israelites demand a king 

    • To be like other nations

    • Israelites were supposed to be holy or different from other nations

      • God was supposed to be their King

    • God has Samuel warn them

      • The king will tax you

      • He'll take your children when he wants them

      • You will be his slaves

• “Christians who advocate for human rulers today tend to assume that God is only opposed to unjust rulers.” - Patrick

  • They’ll point to China and say it’s wrong because it’s authoritarian

  • God never says, “Kingship is a good idea, as long as it’s limited.” - Patrick

  • “He says, ‘He’s going to tax you,’ as if that’s inherently wrong.”

• There has never been a human-made government who had everyone’s best interests at heart

• So many in the US believe our government was made by God and is just

  • How can it be from God when it kills so many people and other parts of His creation overseas?

    • So many atrocities

      • From foreign policy to war on drugs

• People argue that we’re being taxed to help the poor

  • Whereas kings only taxed to get rich

  • The government is not helping the poor

  • Jesus didn't give his money to Caesar and ask him to help the poor

    • He told his disciples to do it

    • He modeled how to help

  • Real charity isn't forced

  • There is no instance in Scripture of the government being used to promote general welfare

• The rich’s taxes

  • Many people advocate for raising wealthy people’s taxes

    • Goes against 2/10 Commandments

      • Don’t envy

      • Don’t steal

  • Do the rich have a duty to give to the poor out of their wealth, since they have been given much?

    • Yes, but that doesn't give us the right to force them

  • People get mad because the rich find loopholes through paying taxes

    • If you can find a way around it, do it!

      • Use the money you save to help the poor

• Outsourcing sin

  • Give people power and let them kill the people we don’t like

    • And claim innocence

15:15 Examples from the Old Testament

• Conquered nations paid tribute to the conquering king

  • No longer working for themselves

• Whoever slays Goliath (1 Samuel 17:25)

  • Will be made rich

  • Marry the princess

  • And have his father’s house set free

    • AKA exempt from taxes

    • The Hebrew word used here for “free” is used throughout the Old Testament as the opposite of enslaved

    • “If being set free from slavery is equivalent to not having to pay taxes, then the implication is that having to pay taxes is being a slave.” - Patrick

  • The death of King Solomon (1 Kings 12)

    • The people asked his son for their yoke to be lightened

      • Yoke is often used to talk about slavery

    • Led to tax revolt and division of the kingdom

    • Solomon’s son asked 2 groups of people for advice

      • The elders said to listen to the people, lighten their taxes, and they’ll love you forever and gladly serve you

      • His younger friends advised him to tax even more heavily

        • He listened to them

  • Isaiah 58

    • Isaiah asked that every yoke be broken 

      • Taxation is talked about as a yoke

        • So, shouldn’t we want it to be broken and the oppressed set free?

21:21 We are not just oppressed; we are slaves

• Not because the government is unjust

  • Even if they were just, they don’t have the right to tell us how to live

• I should be able to choose whether or not I live under the government

• Everyone knows the black community was enslaved

  • Also, the Irish

  • But they say we are free

• If you have to ask permission to be free, you are a slave

• Christians should walk away

  • We have one King

  • He did not establish these earthly governments

  • Follow Jesus Christ

• Our current system will never change

  • We can’t keep doing the same thing and expect different results

  • Even if one guy lowers our taxes, the next might not

  • It’s not working

  • We have to walk away

• “Understand that, to the extent that we participate in government, we are complicit in enslaving our neighbors.” - Patrick

  • Being police officers or in the military subjugates other citizens

    • Those officers take an oath to defend citizens from enemies foreign or domestic

      • If they really did that, they'd be protecting us from politicians

        • Not from the agents they sent in to pretend to attack the capitol

      • Definition of terrrorism: “The [unlawful] violence and intimidation that is used normally against civilians for political ends”

        • Had to add “unlawful” so police could intimidate

  • Voluntary society security

    • Not violent and intimidating

    • Run by the market, not politicians

      • Without police and military, politicians are nothing but people with bad ideas

    • Private security guards already outnumber our police force

28:30 New Testament Examples

• We are Jesus-centric here

• Matthew 17

  • Rulers do not tax their sons; only citizens

    • The sons are free

    • Israelites are sons of God

      • Therefore should not have to pay the temple tax

  • The most literal translation of the word for free is “not slaves”

    • Implying that those who pay taxes are slaves

  • Jesus got this across by asking Peter questions

    • He always made people think

32:00 Nehemiah (chapters 5 and 9)

• Israel living under foreign rule

• They took out loans on their fields to pay their taxes

  • Now, they owed interest

  • Their children were enslaved

  • They were powerless because they owned nothing

• Nehemiah became a governor

  • Did not lay a heavy burden

    • Because he feared God

    • He saw taxing people too heavily as problematic

33:18 What constitutes too heavy of a tax?

• Our taxes are much higher than most ancient times

• The American Revolution was fought over what we would now call a very low tax rate

• The point is, any level of tax means subjugation and theft

34:03 Israelites’ plea to God

• They are slaves in the land He gave them to enjoy

• All the fruits go to the king God put over them as punishment

• The kings ruled their bodies and livestock

• Some say they would not have been slaves if they were ruled by an Israelite

  • The line between foreigners and neighbors is not always clear

  • Christians are foreigners in all nations

35:37 1 Peter 2

• In Greek, “human institution/authority” is really “human creation”

  • Governments are manmade

  • God set up priests

    • Government was not something He wanted to be a part of His creation

• Jeremiah 27

  • Submit to your punishment of kings ruling

  • Romans 13

  • Doesn’t mean the empire is just

    • In Isaiah, God uses Assyria to punish Israel

      • But also punishes Assyria for their arrogance

38:55 Obedience vs submission

• Rosa Parks submitted, but didn’t obey

• You don’t have to obey if the law is unjust

  • But you have to submit to the consequences

• Submission is a general attitude; obedience is on a law-by-law basis

• Plenty of Biblical examples of people disobeying the law and being deemed righteous

• If man’s law breaks God’s, we follow God’s

• Many realized Caesar’s rule was illegitimate and wanted to overthrow it

  • Paul wrote Romans 13 in response

  • Violence is not the way of the Kingdom

• Live as people who are free

  • But don’t use your freedom to sin

41:44 Can a real anarchist pay taxes?

• “I’m not paying taxes; I’m avoiding jail.” - Larkin Rose

• They steal them without my consent from my paycheck

• I want to stay out of jail and spread the Kingdom

• Romans 12:18

  • “Be at peace with everyone.”

• Paul’s number one priority was to get the Gospel out there

  • If paying taxes is going to make some people view you more positively, do it

  • If we’re going around causing trouble, even if it’s justified, it’s not going to make people view us in a positive light

• Peter told actual slaves to stay with their masters and serve them well

  •  In order to possibly win their souls

  • 1 Peter 2:18

44:18 Civil disobedience

• Not revolution

  • Even if you win, there’s still somebody in charge who uses violence to get what they want

• MLK and his people did it right

  • No fighting back

• Christians should be disobeying and taking the punishment when laws are garbage

46:37 Why we’re anarchists

• We see governments behaving just as God warned us they would

• They want us to respond with violence

  • That’s not how you teach about Jesus

• We make change by promoting the Kingdom of Christ peacefully

• Obey God rather than man

  • Acts 5:29

• The 2 greatest commandments (Matthew 22:36-40)

  • Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength

  • Love your neighbor as yourself

  • “If a law is passed that gets in the way of me loving my neighbor, I will disobey that law.” - Patrick

49:30 How to make change

• Talk about it

• Preach about it

• Help people understand we are being enslaved

• Matthew 20:20-28

  • We live in an upside-down Kingdom

  • We should be turning people’s worldviews upside down

---

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53. Love at the Border with David Hathaway

About this episode

David Hathaway is sheriff in a county of Arizona that borders Mexico. He does not believe the government is the way to solve our problems, but he's in office for now so no tyrannical person will be. He's doing what he can to protect everyone in his large family as well as his ranch and personal freedom. He has refused his governor’s offer of troops to patrol his portion of the border. He works to show everyone in and near his county God's love.

His consistent experience with the church and other freedom-lovers spewing wild hate when it comes to the wall led him to write a book on immigration and several articles for Lew Rockwell and the Libertarian Institute.

Jesus instructed us to love our neighbor and our enemy. So regardless of how you view them, it makes no sense to attack people for crossing a man-made line in the sand. But a lot of Christians and anarchists who stand on principle for many other issues completely change their tune when it comes to the wall and Mexico.

Many of us are hoping to someday be a part of a voluntary society. We often ask: would a sheriff be a part of that? David shares his thoughts. Also, we all know the mainstream media hides the truth from us. But they are pretending so hard that COVID is terrible, they’re completely ignoring the fact that suicide and overdoses killed more people during the lockdown than this “epidemic” did directly. This is tragic and affecting so many families, but people hide in the shadows, not realizing they are, unfortunately, the norm.

Episode Timestamps:

3:36 Illogical inconsistencies

• Anarchists and the border

• Some Austrian economists

  • In favor of national borders

    • While we’re in the nation-state phase

• Tax-funded border enforcers

• Scott Horton agrees

  • We shouldn't have tax funded, coercive structures in any parts of our life, if we want to have a voluntary system

• Will Grigg

  • Wrote a blurb for David’s book

  • Passed away

  • 100% principled Christian anarchist

    • Was against the state-funded border

5:48 Arizona citizens’ response to what David is doing on the border

• The biggest pushback is from conservative churches

  • They love to work with him on other issues

  • Across the country, Christians have decided we must do whatever it takes to keep these people out

    • Send troops

    • Knock heads

    • Shoot em

    • Lock em up

    • Take away their property

  • Maybe because they love Trump so much?

    • He is like their messiah

    • They associate this issue with him

• 25 years ago, Raegan had the opposite stance

  • “Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!” - Raegan

  • Because walls and tanks don’t promote free enterprise

• Now, we even do southbound inspections

  • To make sure you’re not trying to flee the US

• People talk about Jesus and love one minute

  • The next minute, they’re angry and violent towards people crossing our border to find a better life

    • They can’t see the conflict there, somehow

  • But Jesus said love your neighbor and your enemy

    • That’s everybody!

9:51 Scriptural support

• Sermon on the Mount

  • Love your enemies

• Good Samaritan

  • Culturally and ethnically different people are still neighbors

• Jesus’ position is so clear

  • None of the conservatives who oppose David’s stance will discuss it

    • They just get angry

12:40 War

• We cannot serve 2 masters

• They take Romans 13 and say

  • It would be wrong for me to throw a bomb at someone

    • But if the government does it, it’s okay

      • They were instituted by God

  • They’ll shut up if you ask them if they think the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan was of God

    • Or if Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were ordained 

  • Rom 13 refers to true authority

13:48 Radical beliefs

• Jesus and the early church were radical 

  • We need to all go back to being radical

  • “It’s a radical thought to take His Word seriously.” - Craig

•  Tiberius

  • Proclaimed Rome to be a Christian nation

    • Before he did that, the army would do pagan rituals before battle

    • After, they continued to do rituals, but claimed to be praying to Jesus Christ

      • So everything the military did seemed legitimate to the Christians

• But for 3 centuries, the church did not follow the state

  • They wouldn't even allow anyone who was associated with the state to attend their gatherings

  • Then they got involved with Constantine because he offered some protection from the endless persecution they were facing

• Polycarp

  • Was taught to honor the government as long as they are doing us no harm

17:37 Opting out

• “The reason we pay taxes is not because it's legitimate, what the government's doing. It's just to live peaceably with all men.” - David

  • It's like turning the other cheek

  • The government is coercing us into giving them a lot of our income

    • So we just peacefully do what they ask

• But we can peacefully protest in other ways

• We can homeschool

• Render unto Caesar

  • But what is Caesar's?

  • Nietzsche says that the government owns nothing 

    • Everything the government owns is stolen

      • Which makes it not legitimately theirs

      • They don’t have a rightful claim to anything because they got it through coercion

  • So we pay taxes to protect those with weak faith from thinking we’re hostile

    • We want to stay friends with people who believe in taxes

    • What would Jesus do?

      • Ask them questions

    • What do we do when people disagree with us about something important?

      • Ask them questions 

      • Get their head spinning

      • Make them actually think through what they’re defending

      • That’s how we change what’s going on

20:57 Foreigners

• Red herring

  • Keeps people from noticing our country’s problems

  • “They don't want you to complain about the actual tyranny and the freedom they're taking away from you and your own country.” - David

• In wartime, we’re “allowed to” hate people from our enemy country – even if they’re US citizens

  • Past: Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, German…

    • Germans hated Polish

  • Now:  Syrian, Afghan, Iraqi, Iranian, Russian…

  • We complain about them

    • Call them barbarians

      • This is always been a tactic

      • The Romans declared the Germans to be barbarian, and people still believe that myth to this day

      • Then, we won’t notice or complain about our own barbaric government

    • But we're the ones bombing their weddings and children

25:36 The governors on the border

• Both Ducey (AZ) and Abbott (TX) are trying to replicate Trump’s formula

• They assumed all the sheriffs on the border would gladly participate

• Posse Comitatus

  • The military cannot function as police within the US

  • They can support the police, if invited

• David told them no. 

  • This is a negative image of us at the border

  • It hurts our shopping districts 

  • It hurts tourism from bigger cities like Tucson and Phoenix

  • They wanted to bring not only razor wire

    • But troops with machine guns

  • Feels like East Berlin

• 2 of 4 Arizona border sheriffs invited them

  • Good political move to get re-elected

• The governors asked the lower 48 to please send officers and military to help guard

  • David is saying no to that too

  • Those people can’t function in a different state without being deputized by a local sheriff

  • Outsiders do not know the terrain or local people; who’s dangerous or not; everyone will have on their own, different uniforms; different radio frequencies

    • It’s not a safe situation

    • Could end up with friendly fire

• Who knows how long David will be able to resist the big guys as a little local sheriff?

28:52 What does a wall do?

• Raegan told Gorbachev it

  • Is a symbol of totalitarianism

  • Prevents free markets

• Lots of feds and the biggest border patrol station in his county

• The biggest port of entry in Arizona

• Quiet, low-crime area

  • Not because of the wall and patrols

• But maybe the governors think they’ll run for president, and people will like how they strengthened the border

30:56 David’s political campaign

• Wanted a campaign slogan about the golden rule/Good Samaritan in 3 words

  • “A Helpful Neighbor”

  • In English and Spanish

    • To be welcoming to everyone on either side of the border

• Didn’t interview about non-existent crises to get elected through fear

  • Didn’t promise to control anyone

• Simply focused on helping people

• Won by a landslide

  • Had 4x the number of votes of the runner up

• People were clearly glad to hear something so uplifting

33:10 News

• Not from the evening news

  • Too much anger and division and fear

• Reputable podcasts!

  • Scott Horton

  • Peter Schiff

  • Tom Woods

  • David Knight

  • Pete Quinones

• Plus a local news email

  • Which includes political nonsense with its information

• He does interviews, but won’t watch the channels

• David and his wife do not wish to become depressed

  • Mainstream news bogs you down

  • And they lie so much!

• How do you know the podcasts aren’t lying?

  • Their message is consistent

    • Their viewpoint doesn’t change daily

    • Their goalposts, like for ending Corona, don’t move

  • Mainstream media is full of “court intellectuals”

    • They are chosen because their science leads to the government having more control over our lives

35:58 Police in a voluntary society?

• Maybe it would be like having a sheriff, since he’s elected

  • No, sheriffs are funded through theft, aka taxation

  • The government arbitrarily decides how many patrol officers and other personnel and equipment might be needed and taxes the public accordingly

  • There’s no way to know what a market-funded security entity might look like

    • But we can be sure that the market would determine what gets established

  • Democracy is not legitimate

    • It doesn’t provide just outcomes

      • If 2 wolves and a sheep vote for what’s for dinner every night, the sheep will always lose

• Sheriffs historically

  • Common law

    • Sheriff was the only law enforcement at all

  • City police forces were created in 1800’s

    • London, then NYC

    • 3-letter federal agencies came in 1900’s

      • No provision in the constitution for anything like them

      • FBI was never supposed to have weapons

  • If you think politics means anything, you would say the sheriff is the only legitimate law enforcement

    • Not as a patrol position

      • But a judge

      • And executor of justice

      • Police never catch bad guys by patrolling

        • They only take statements after the crime

• A police or security force is only necessary in a voluntary society if the market demands it, and then only to the extent that the people want

42:01 Taxation is theft

• We never signed a social contract agreeing to give up our income for services

  • If asked, most people would say no

    • And go find a different way to get their needs met

42:45 David’s reasons for being sheriff

• Even someone wrapped up in politics can see that only local solutions make sense

• Main reason: If I don’t, some guy who will do what they want will be in office running mine and my family’s lives

• If I’m sheriff, no one is telling the people in my county how to live

• Not planning to influence anything beyond local politics

  • I don’t think the state is the answer

  • I make LP people sad

• In a nutshell, to protect family and property from tyranny

45:00 Unintended consequences to lockdown

• Craig's baby brother drank himself to death

  • He was so afraid of the virus

  • He isolated himself completely 

• Nobody's talking about the high numbers of suicides and overdoses that came during COVID

• Rand Paul asked Fauci if he had thought of the consequences of a lockdown

  •  Fauci essentially just said “Nope. It's really important that everyone participate.”

• Good economics will look at more than one factor; it'll take them all into account

• The suicides and overdoses were 3x higher in David’s county after the lockdown started

  • These outnumber deaths directly attributable to COVID

  • The county north of David's just had their highest count of suicides and overdoses ever recorded

• The news will not report on this at all 

• David tries to mention it to reporters, but they likely edit it out

• 2 segments of society hardest hit: the old and the young

• The government wants people to continue believing that everything’s being done for our good

• COVID death numbers

  • The hospital got $15,000 for every COVID admission

    • Did not even require physical test

      • Could just have ⅛ general symptoms

  • They got $39,000 for every COVID death

    • Only true deaths David saw were from ventilators

  • The number is even lower in reality

    • But there were more suicides & overdoses than even the faked high number

  • Also, flu cases got counted as COVID

52:04 Contact David

• Davidhathaway@gmail.com

Writings on Lew Rockwell and Libertarian Institute

---

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52. Yemen: The War with No End with Scott Horton

About this episode

Scott Horton provides the truth about current events with historical context. He has a way of weaving together seemingly unconnected events to paint a big picture most people cannot see for themselves. He is the director of The Libertarian Institute, editor of antiwar.com, and runs a popular podcast called The Scott Horton Show.

Scott returns to The Bad Roman once again, in the midst of a media frenzy around Putin’s war with Ukraine, to remind us (and educate us) on the ongoing war, and general disruption, the United State of America has been wagging in Yemen and the Middle East.

What we’re doing in Yemen is illegal. We are providing every kind of support (besides troops) to Saudi Arabia, the UAE, and Al Qaeda as they bomb and blockade the Houthi people in the north. Children are starving. And what do we even gain from this? A bit of money for a corporation? A feeling of world domination? There is a long, complicated history of us meddling in the Middle East that led us to this point. Scott Horton sorts it out for us. 

To learn more about Scott Horton and his work, you can follow Scott on Twitter. buy or listen to his books about the war in the Middle East. If you are interested in learning more about the situation and Yemen and the middle east check out episode 23, our first interview with Scott.

EPISODE TIMESTAMPS:

1:57 What happened to Biden’s Promise?

• He ordered that everything we were doing in Yemen stop

  • Yet it continues

  • He ordered that resupply and maintenance, intelligence and logistics from the US cease

  • The US used to refuel Saudi/UAE planes in the air and created a Navy blockade against Iran, but stopped 

  • Admiral Kirby had said they were going to implement Biden’s order in February

    • By May, he was saying, “Of course, we need to send them plane maintenance teams”

    • After that, we just resumed our support

5:40 The Price of War

• Civilians are suffering the most

• No one is even keeping a casualty count for citizens

• They’ll tell us about the humanitarian crisis after it’s all over

6:46 Why no one cares in the US

• Yemen is far away

• People don’t even know where it is

• Also, we’re not sending troops to die or be injured there, so it’s not personal to us

7:33 Why do we keep it going?

• We have to do whatever Saudi Arabia tells us

• Money

  • From arms sales to Saudis

• There will not be a good enough reason to satisfy us

  • Nothing they could say would make this reasonable

• Petrodollar

• To stay dominant in the Middle East

10:35 Who is our enemy?

• Right now, we’re backing Al Qaeda

• Obama’s drone wars were against Al Qaeda

  • Special forces sent in a lot

    • Still probably are at times

    • But we are not occupying

• Switched sides in 2015

11:43 People's awareness

• Even when we fully invaded Iraq, people stopped paying attention by the end of 2003

• Even well-educated friend thought Yemen was in Africa

  • It’s the southwestern tip of the Arabian Peninsula

• This has been going on for decades, but no one noticed until Obama started bombing in 2009

  • Except that one incident where Bush bombed a car belonging to Al-Quaeda and killed an American who was hanging out with them

    • After that, he let the Yemeni dictator do the fighting

      • The dictator was playing both sides

        • Fighting Al-Qaeda

        • Also paying them to fight the Shiites

  • Obama said that Bush was going after too many groups

    •  Focused on Al-Qaeda

      1. Turns out there were only 29 guys to target

      2. Killed thousands of people in Pakistan

      3. In exchange, we helped them win against the Taliban

      4.  That war led to the rise of ISIS

      5. Al-Qaeda was responsible for

         1. Coordinating 9/11

         2. Tried to bomb a plane over Detroit

         3. Charlie Hebdo attack

         4. Printer cartridge plots

         5. Comic Convention in France

         6. Death metal concert

         7. Other massacres in France

         8. One in Brussels

17:42 Houthi

• Scott's episode with Shereen, she mentioned that Houthis have more support than ever

• Sort of like what Ron Paul said

  • They're mad because we're bombing their homes, so they're retaliating the best way they know-how

    • They end up creating or joining terrorist organizations

18:44 Rewind - How did the War in Yemen Start

• Jimmy Carter’s problem

  • Americans had Vietnam Syndrome – they were done with war

  • His national security advisors wanted to go against Russia

  • They decided if we can't directly fight them, we should convince them to fight a worthless war like we just did and drain all their resources

    • We baited them into unsustainable over-expansion

      • In Afghanistan

      • By supporting the Mujahideen

      • Russia invaded that winter, but who knows if our actions had anything to do with it 

      • We continued to fight the Soviets through the Mujahideen and the Arab Afghan Army

        • Arab men from around the world who came to fight the holy war

        • Formed into Al Qaeda

          • Every Al Qaeda group in the world currently has its roots with fighting for the CIA under Reagan against the Soviets in Afghanistan

      • We also supported Saddam Hussein against Iran in the 80s

        • Our puppet government had been overthrown

        • Supported Saddam for 8 years

          • Until he invaded Kuwait

          • Suddenly, we launched Operation Desert Storm at him

      • Bush Sr. encouraged the Shiite uprising in Iraq

        • until he realized the leaders came from Iran

        • then we had them crushed by Saddam Hussein

          • We blamed him for the massacre and went to war against him

          • “We’re Superman, and it’s our job to protect these Shiites” - Scott

24:44 Why they attacked us

• We kept our bases in Saudi Arabia to police Iraq and Iran

  • All the Mujahideen mercenaries we had created turned on us

    • We were occupying their holy land

      • Imagine if Jesus had been born in Texas and someone just decided to own that space

• Revenge

• For backing Israel against Palestine

• For supporting dictators in the region

26:09 Their strategy

• Hit us

• Bog us down

• Trick us as we’d tricked the Soviets

  • Get us to invade Afghanistan

    • The loss of Afghani life doesn’t matter to them

      • If they’re true Muslims, they’ll go to Heaven

    • The goal was to break the power of the American Empire

    • America spread the Jihad throughout the region

      • We radicalized people everywhere we went because we brought chaos

27:51 Continued timeline

• George W took the Shiites his dad abandoned to Baghdad

  • Kicked the Sunnis out of power

    • Pushed them out of the city right into the open arms of Al Qaeda

• Radicalized fighters from across the region met in Iraq to attack us and the Shiites

  • Suicide bombers

  • Head choppers

  • They targeted civilians and people praying at the mosque

• After the war, they all went home and caused trouble

  • Syria, Libya, Yemen…

  • Obama took their side in Libya and Syria

• Obama ordered the CIA to go after Al Qaeda

  • So, they drop bombs and missiles on those associated with Bin Laden

  • Small problem: “People really don't like it when you drop gigantic explosives on their family members and tear their bodies apart.” - Scott

    • Good motivation to join Al Qaeda

      • “Obama's trying to kill these guys, but as he's killing them, he's just essentially watering the garden with their blood and growing more and more of their replacements.” - Scott

31:54 Yemen

• The USA is bombing Al Qaeda

• Bribing Saleh in the capital with money and weapons for permission to bomb

  • But he was also hiring Al Qaeda to help him fight his enemies

    • He was losing, and his enemy got stronger with each defeat

    • He also was financing his enemy

  • They were all getting worn out

• 2011 Arab Spring

  • Successful in Egypt and Tunisia

  • The whole region breaks out and tries to overthrow rulers

  • In Yemen, all groups gathered and agreed: Ali Abdullah Saleh must go

    • Many protests

    • Assassination attempts with explosives

      • 2nd one who injured him went to Saudi Arabia for treatment

    • While he was in the hospital, Hilary made a deal with the Saudis to replace Saleh with his VP

      • They created a one-man election, he would not allow for re-election; he just stayed in office, he caused gas prices to double/triple overnight; made the Houthis’ lives more difficult and then tried to attack them (see a full list of the terrible things this guy did in Scott’s book)

      • He lost, just like Saleh always did, but this time because of Saleh he didn’t go away quietly and took two-thirds of the army with him. They then allied with his former enemies in order to attack the new ruler, who, it turns out, he was actually a Zaydi Shiite from the north

38:00 Houthis vs Saleh’s VP

• 2014, the Houthi-Saleh alliance seized the capital

• 2015, US Central Command allied with Houthis

  • Gave them intelligence to fight Al Qaeda

  • … until we didn’t

    • Obama stabbed them in the back

    • Suddenly, we’re allied with Saudi Arabia, UAE, and Al Qaeda trying to drive the Houthis out of power

      • No progress has been made in this war

  • Loophole of responsibility 

    • No American lives are being lost

    • This is a Saudi-led coalition

      • We're just helping them out a bit

41:30 Does that make any sense?

• We are the empire

  • Saudi Arabia is our client: We make all the equipment in the US - this is our war

  • Why are we begging our clients to stay with us?

    • For money? Why are we so desperate for money?

• Trump had raised tariffs on China

  • This hurt American manufacturing because pricing and availability changed

  • We’d already cut taxes

  • We decided to bolster the Military-Industrial Complex

  • Made a contract with Raytheon to build all the equipment

  •  as if that boosts our entire economy somehow

  • Trump boasted that Saudi Arabia was spending $450 billion on our weapons 

  • They really only spent $3 billion, which is enough to kill way too many people

  • He claimed that a million jobs were reliant on Saudi Arabia’s purchases

  • Maybe 30,000 are

  • It's really just welfare for big companies that are paid for in human lives 

45:30 What to bomb

• The Saudi military can bomb whatever they want

• The US Military can blame things on Saudi Arabia, so they also can attack wherever they want 

• They're fighting an economic war by bombing farms, roads, and marketplaces

• Hospitals

• Bombing water has led to cholera outbreaks

  • Biggest outbreak since WWII

  • Babies and toddlers die of dehydration

48:03 Reminder of who we are fighting

• Our enemies in Yemen never attacked us

  • Our allies did

• The Houthis are not heroes, but they never did anything to provoke an attack from us

• We keep attacking civilians

  • Against Geneva Convention

    • We would lock anyone else up for our crimes

    • Lawyers working for POTUS have written memos saying we’re breaking the law and could get in trouble

• Every US president involved is a war criminal

  • Every president since Carter is condemned in this episode

  • “They’re just presidents. They’re not America.” - Scott

  • They’re the worst people in North America

  • They’ve all done terrible things; none is better than the others

  • None of this should hurt your feelings. You don’t have a personal connection to any president.

  • “I don't think that you have to condemn America to condemn that man and the decisions he made.” - Scott

  • Both Trump and Obama made decisions to kill thousands just to placate someone else on the hill

  • These men do not represent the wishes or morals of the American people

    • “You can get people to cheer for these things, but only by lying to them from morning to night in order to get them to be afraid and then endorse the idea that their government is only trying their best to protect them when it's just not true” - Scott

  • “I’m not anti-American; I’m anti-government-of-America.” - Craig

  • The average citizen is not guilty except by electing the people who are

56:22 Branch Davidians at Waco

• Americans

• Took over a tiny plot of land in a tiny town in Texas

• FBI & president acted as if they were foreigners

  • The reality is, we’re all American

• 2 sides + innocents caught in the crossfire

• Treated David Koresh like Saddam Hussein

  • Called him crazy so they could seize his weapons and kill him “to save everyone else”

  • Same script in 1993 that they used again in 2003

• The threats they tell us about just aren’t that likely to attack, in reality

  • Unless the US influences the situation to start something

  • “This is the big secret… America has no enemies in the world at all.” - Scott

    • We would be just fine without the Pentagon or a military

      • Ron Paul said we could defend ourselves with just a couple of good submarines holding basic torpedoes

59:46 World powers

• USA

• Brazil?

  • 2nd biggest American economy after the US, Canada, and Mexico

    • Canada and Mexico are not threats; we’re friends

  • Does not have a navy

• Europe

  • Friends

  • Including Russia

    • Putin will tell you we’re partners

• Africa

  • None

  • Egypt is under our thumb

    • They wouldn’t start a war that shuts down their main source of income (the Suez Canal) and gets them bombed

• India

  • A billion people, most desperately poor

  • No outward foreign policy in place at all

• China

  • Our 2nd biggest trading partner

  • Nixon made friends with Mao 50 years ago

    • Separated them from the Soviet Union

    • Mao was so dangerous, it was better to be his friend

  • After Mao died, it was more of a fascist dictatorship with a market economy

  • The worst that might happen is they invade Taiwan, which is unlikely

    • We officially recognize Taiwan as part of China

    • We don’t want a war there, but we probably won’t defend Taiwan

  • Even if they did take Taiwan, they’re not going to go further and overtake the US as the world empire  

• Other Asian countries

  • Just not interested in conflict

  • Japan is no longer an imperialist power

    • Their population is aging

• Middle East

  • Conflicts among tribal and religious groups

  • But Iran is not coming for Israel

    • And if they were, Israel is the most aggressive threat in the region

• “We could just completely shed ourselves of this militarism and be a limited constitutional republic with a free-market capitalist economy.” - Scott

  • No one can look back at the last 20 years and say, “Thank God we did that!”

  • Our bridges and other infrastructure are crumbling

    • We wasted $10 trillion blowing innocent people up

      • To shuffle power around in the Middle East

1:07:13 The humanitarian crisis in Yemen

• Every 75 seconds, a child dies from hunger due to the blockade

• Famine

• The poorest country in the Middle East

• IMF convinced them to plow under their millet and other food crops

  •  Planted coffee and cotton instead

  •  Sold on the global market so they could trade yummy food from other countries

  •  Worked great until the US blockaded them

    •  You can't eat cotton and coffee

• Houthis were defined as a terrorist organization, but it was redacted

  • Talking about doing that again

    • Which will make it illegal to send in food or other aid

• This is not propaganda like Saddam Hussein throwing premature babies on the floor

  • This is real.

  • These babies are dying.

  • Starving to death.

• “We need to stop doing this; we need to find a different path.” - Craig

1:10:30 Religious War?

• Christians in the US we’re told we had to go fight the spread of radical Islam

  • Saddam Hussein was an atheist

    • He was afraid of Osama Bin Laden’s Islam

• For years, we were told we must stop the Muslims from wiping us out

  • Now, we’ve forgotten about them

    • Focus has shifted to China and Russia

• Truth: “Al Qaeda is still out there and the American policies that drive them to attack us still exist in great measure.” - Scott

• We support all these kings and sultans

• The danger comes from American policies messing stuff up

• It doesn’t have to be this way

• Most people just don’t understand how the whole story is connected

  • Or that it’s possible for us to not be over there in the Middle East

  • Ron Paul tried to tell people we could get out

    • They simply dismissed him

• Trump called George W the dumbest and worst

  • Caused Republicans to decide between Bush and Trump: which is worse?

  • If they wanted to stay loyal to the current guy, they had to denounce their old beliefs

  • Also, Trump is ruthless

    • If he thought bombing the Middle East would help America, he would not hesitate

      • But he didn’t think that

      • He wanted out

  • Trump led people to question not only why we were over there under Bush

    • But why we are still over there

• Colonel Douglas MacGregor

  • Wrote the book on invasions

  • Says we don’t have to be in conflict with Russia

    • Or China

    • We don’t have any enemies at all

      • Anyone who says otherwise needs their head examined

1:18:28 George Washington’s ghost

• Calling out, “It’s supposed to be a limited republic!”

  • Not in a constant state of war and/or emergency

  • War is only for extreme situations

  • How can we be free or have rights in an emergency state?

• We are not protecting the Bill of Rights

  • We’re not passing it down

  • It is dying

• We don't have a pact with Jesus to protect our Bill of Rights

• You can’t have a limited republic with a world empire

  • Economic pain? High inflation?

    • Empire economics

      • No hard money

        • Must be able to print more for emergencies

    • “This is the bubble, friends, and the crash is coming.” - Scott

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

45. Radically Following Jesus with Shane Claiborne

In this episode, Shane Claiborne joins us to talk about living like Jesus, abortion, gun violence, Christian nationalism, and whether we should get involved in politics as a way to help others live in freedom. 

We know the teachings of Jesus, but what does it look like to actually follow them? How can we care for other humans as God instructed, and how can we do that when we live amidst a corrupt and often unjust government? As Shane points out, “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen savior.” Our Lord was killed by the government. We should not trust in our rulers, but in Him, but, as Shane would argue, we can use their system to help people by getting bad policies changed.

Who is Shane Claiborne? He is a radical advocate for living as if Jesus really meant what He said. He heads up an intentional, simple-living Christian community called Red Letter Christians, and is the co-founder of The Simple Way, an intentional neighborhood-based Christian community in North Philadelphia. Shane has been to jail multiple times while advocating for the poor and against war. You can connect with him on his personal website, Twitter, email, and Instagram. 

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Timestamps:

1:26 What following Jesus looks like

• “Man, I was pretty together, met Jesus, and He messed me up.” -Shane

  • Teachings like

    • To be great, become the least

    • Love your enemies

    • Sell possessions and give to the poor

  • Started a community for local homeless people who were being evicted from a church. They

    • Fix up abandoned houses

    • Create gardens

    • Paint murals

    • Care for neighbors’ needs 

7:24 Pro-life or just anti-abortion?

• “We shouldn't be in other countries dropping bombs on people” -Craig

• One-issue voting is inconsistent

• Christians are the obstacle to progress

9:45 A Bible in one hand; a newspaper in the other

•  Know what's going on in the world around you

• “When you look at Jesus, He was talking about the Kingdom of God coming on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Not just something we go up to when we die, but something we bring down while we're alive.” - Shane

• Study the Bible and sociology together

11:41 Christian Nationalism

• Trump didn’t change the church; he revealed their true beliefs 

• “A lot of white Christians have been shaped more by whiteness than by Christ.” -Shane

• People use the Gospel to justify all kinds of atrocities

• Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

• Compare Trump and his policies to The Sermon on the Mount

• Christians betrayed Jesus with a kiss for a couple seats on the Supreme Court

• Welcome the stranger -- not because you're Republican or Democrat, but because you follow Jesus, and that is His example

• “A lot of times it's been more Fox news or a political party that's shaping our imagination than the Gospel” -Shane

• Christians wind up saying ugly things like that they want to go to the border and shoot people when they follow Trump instead of Christ

19:15 Nothing new

• People fear the transfer of power from white people

  • They want to take America back; to make it great again

    • To counteract any progress Black Lives Matter made

• Fear and love cannot occupy the same space 

  • “What would America look like if love rather than fear were compelling our policies and shaping our minds on a lot of these things?” -Shane

22:45 Debate: Do we need to get involved in politics to love our neighbor?

• Shane: Laws can either improve or destroy people's lives

  •  We need to work to get harmful laws changed for the good of our neighbor

• Craig: Politics are not our thing; we're of a different Kingdom

  •  Jesus didn't use politics to advance His agenda

• Shane: Opting out has consequences

  • We're not putting our hope in a politician; we’re voting to change policies that make life harder for our friends

  • Vote on behalf of those Jesus blessed

    • The poor, the mourning, the refugees, the incarcerated... 

  • Don't only help them through the ballot. Work every day for their freedom.

  • Fight for laws that make it harder to kill them

• Craig: Ballots don't do that. Voting doesn't change anything and doesn't help anyone.

• Shane: We should use every weapon we have; harness the principalities 

• Craig: Christians live on the fringes of society and shouldn't be involved in the system at all

• Shane: Moving to a community with black folks changed my perspective

  • Dr. King went to jail for political change 

  • “I do believe that the church is a primary instrument for God transforming the world.”

  • God can redeem the system using us

  • Legislation helps people flourish

    • We use it to keep people safe in cars; need for guns too

    • Jesus judges nations on how they cared for the poor

31:14 The early Church’s politics

• They were called atheists because they denied the deity of Rome

• They disrupted the empire by claiming another Emperor

• But Jesus didn’t kill anyone to overthrow the empire

  • He died.

  • And many details leading to His death can be seen as a parody to Caesar’s rule

• “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen Savior.” - Shane

• Irreconcilable vocations

  • Brothel, executioner, anyone who had to kill for the state

    • Jesus said love your enemies, which means not killing them

• They were consistently against all violence

  • Abortion, execution, gladiators…

36:09 Living like Christians

• People use the Bible to justify terrible things

• We cannot live like a Christian and go against the teachings of Christ

• Gandhi wished we would. He liked Jesus, but was not a fan of the church

• We should view the entire Bible’s contents through the lens of Jesus 

39:13 Guns into Gardens Project; Beating Guns book

• Old Testament prophets speak of turning swords into plows

  • Similarly, turning guns into garden tools

    • And crosses

      • One says I want to kill; the other says I’m willing to die

    • And jewelry for victims of gun violence to wear and sell

  • People say it's not a gun problem; it's a heart problem

    • It's both

    • God transforms the heart; people transform the laws

  • Jesus should inspire us to protect life

42:04 The American Revolution

•   Claimed to be following God

  •  If they were, they never would have gone to war 

  • America began with guns. It's impossible to imagine our country without them

    • How else could they have started a country on stolen land with stolen labor?

42:56 Red-letter Christian Intentional Community

• A glimpse of Heaven on Earth

• Sharing everything in common end taking care of each other

• Reducing gun violence through:  

  • Hospitality

  • Drug addiction recovery

  • Lifting people out of the ditch

    • Figure out what's landing them in the ditch in the first place

      • It’s often government laws and policies

        • So we vote and advocate for change

• It'll probably land you in jail 

  • Charged with a felony for leaving water in the desert for immigrants 

  • Obey the good laws; disobey the bad ones

    • Expose how crazy they are by loudly getting in trouble 

    • A rich tradition of civil disobedience 

    • Be willing to suffer the consequences of exposing injustice

• Issues around the world

  • Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan…

    • Preemptive Love

• We spend more on the military than social uplift and are headed for spiritual death 

32. The Troops’ Battle, The State’s Evils: Waging War with Eric Campbell and Nicolas Harrelson

What if everything you have been told about the War on Terror has been a lie?  

In this episode Craig talks with veterans Eric Campbell and Nicolas Harrelson about their experiences as servicemen who toured in Iraq. They discuss how their experiences changed their view on war, and led them on a path to anarchism. Putting a face on the humanity in Iraq and learning that the people there are everyday men and women who are just trying to provide for their families and live in peace, brought about a change in perception for these men. Discovering that the military presence and intervention has caused more harm than good, and the people of Iraq preferred Saddam to the US military was a sobering realization. What is the truth, and why do we continue to occupy these countries? 

LINKS & STARTING POINTS:

2:33 Eric’s Background 

• 20+ years of service 

• Professional national guardsman 

• E5 sergeant 

• Radio operator/communications specialist 

3:51 Nicolas’ Background

• 6 years in the Virginia national guard 

• Eleven Bravo Infantryman 

• 1st deployment to Iraq in 2009-10

• 2nd deployment to Iraq 2011

• Wounded on second deployment, October 2011

16:05 Eric’s Story of being in the military & deployed overseas

• Got to know the locals

• Conditioned to believe that “they” were evil and vile

• Dealt with normal everyday truck drivers who were not devoutly religious Muslims but instead...stereotypical truck drivers

• Realized he was lied to about what kind of people the Iraqi people were 

• The lies and propaganda is in the American churches, media, and military training 

• The Iraqi people are just normal everyday people struggling to survive, and we ruined that. 

32:36 Nicolas’ Story of being in the military & deployed overseas

• The United States being in conflict and war with other countries has been normalized 

• There is no longer peace between us and the rest of the world 

• There has been a complete dehumanization of others 

• The effects of war on his friends 

• Suicide of friends he served with 

• Began putting a human face on the “others”

• “It says a lot about the effects we have had in Iraq when the Iraqi people rather have Saddam as opposed to what we have brought them” 

• We have been involved in the war on terror for 20 years 

• Created the perfect storm of ambiguity that allows for the government to do as they please 

• Creates broken individuals(veterans)

• How does the war effect those who didn’t ask to be involved?

• Heavy burden to bear 

44:56 We have not been in a declared war since World War 2

• Military industrial complex benefits from perpetual war

• Conflict profits the government by growing it 

• “For every terrorist we kill, multiple are created” 

• Average everyday Americans are sucked into the cycle 

• War makes money 

• The soldiers are there to protect Halliburton and those connected to Halliburton and their profits

• Every aspect of the military has some company tied to it 

54:02 Afghan Papers 

• In-depth account of evidence that the military strung along the public and the government to perpetually continue the mission in Afghanistan and Iraq, as a means to continue receiving funding 

• War and conflict has become normalized 

• The United States government has always been the aggressor in all of these conflicts 

• There are no sensible and rational arguments for going into Iraq and Afghanistan 

• We trained Saddam Hussein

• Bin Laden trained by CIA

59:56 There is a need for ministry and mental health assistance in the military 

• War should be the last resort of failed diplomacy 

• There is a large number of service men and women who believe that war should be a last resort 

1:09:59 Eric’s gaming blog: The Anarchist Gamer on blogspot 

23. Scott Horton - The United States Empire - Genocide in Yemen and Beyond

In this episode, Craig digs deep with Scott Horton about the US government’s direct involvement with the war of genocide occurring in Yemen and the general stirring of the pot by the US in the Middle East. In addition to being the editorial director at antiwar.com, Scott, a self-proclaimed Ron Paul libertarian, is also the founder of The Libertarian Institute and author of the book, Fool’s Errand: Time to End the War in Afghanistan. Scott shares his insights regarding the culture war aspect in partisan politics and how every president since George H. W. Bush has been the same product with a different brand name. 

Is the war in Yemen designed to create famine? And if so, how did we get there, why, and what should a Christian’s response be to their government’s involvement in such heinous atrocities? 

Timestamps for further exploration: 

1:22 Scott Horton’s background 

• Ron Paul 

• antiwar.com 

• The Libertarian Institute 

• Fool’s Errand 

• Benje Graves 

6:20 The Culture War Aspect 

• Importance of Ron Paul 

• Micheal Moore and Jane Fonda - stereotypes of being antiwar  

• Conservatives, Libertarians, and patriots 

• abandoning the world empire 

11:45 Craig’s transition, beginning in 2000 

• single-issue voter 

• 9/11 full-fledge neocon 

• 2016 & Trumpism 

• 3rd party options 

13:00 Bill Clinton’s role in the hate for the US found in the Middle East 

• Are we required to defend Clinton because of patriotism? 

• Bush’s blue blood 

• Carole Quigly 

23:00 Trump’s relationship with Wall Street 

25:45 Exploring the problems US involvement causes  in the Middle East 

• the effect of sanctions 

27:30 What would it take for a libertarian to become president?

32:20 Biden: Zionist agent of a foreign power 

• Ayatollah 

• Iran Nuclear Deal 

• Beijing 

• Milton Friedman 

• Mao Zedong 

36:50 Yemen: Why are we there? 

• the effects of US involvement 

Do people have to decide where their priorities lie? God? Or the state? 

Additional links:

The Great Ron Paul, Interview Transcripts 

19. John Dangelo - The Battle of Two Faiths - Politics & Christ

In this episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, Marine Corps veteran and former atheist, John Dangelo joins Craig for a conversation on the disconnect between what the state does and its compatibility with living the way a faith in Christ challenges us to live. They explore themes of war, contemporary progressivism, and how Christians on the right and left have forgotten how to separate political and religious faith.

As Christian Voluntaryist/Anarchist, we put our faith in Christ, not the authority of man made states. When we take a step back, most of our life, from who’s going to fold the laundry, to where we should go on vacation, or to whose turn it is to pick the kids up from soccer practice is done without government intervention, it is voluntary, it is the true definition of voluntaryism/anarchism. So why did Christians cry out at a man kneeling before a flag rather than kneel before that same flag for the sake of Christ? The realities of this entanglement is what we explore in episode 19 and the cornerstone of what the Bad Roman Project seeks to explore.

Timestamps and resources for further exploration:

00:51 John’s background

• Nursing & time in military

• Camp Leatherneck

• Being an atheist

• Anti War propaganda (antiwar.com)

01:47 Clinging to faith in political parties instead of in Christ

03:59 Does it benefit politicians on the right to ban abortion

05:24 “Where else would they go”

• the state, the Christian, and Trump’s lasting impressions on the Republican party

06:38 Theatrics in place of debate - contemporary progressivism

• Michael Malice, The New Right

• Progressivism and totalitarianism

• Social process v. political change

09:13 Evangelical left

• Pew data on evangelicals and protestants political bends

13:06 Push back from other veterans on John’s writings

13:57 Talking with other Christians

• Being a Sunday school teacher

• Thrive Church

15:04 Where is the disconnect for Christians when it comes to war?

• “Mission creep”   

• How 9/11 was used to rationalize US federal power expanse 

• Syria, Somalia, Niger

• Use of sanctions

18:58 What is the hold up for Christians?

• Losing site of faith when talking politics

 22:23 The failures of the two-party system & the path to anarchy

• Is a third party possible?

• Malice and technology reshaping the political landscapes

• Voter turnout in the 2016 US presidential election

25:56 Colin Kapernick kneeling and the response from the right

26:37 Overtly political symbols in Church

• You cannot be a servant to two masters

• Peaceful protest

• Anarchist are supposed to be peaceful

29:50 We are anarchist in 99% of our lives

• Reject rules, chose it voluntarily 

32:10 Collapse of the Soviet Union

• Was relatively peaceful, things did not go up in flames

35:40  Government as Mad Max analogy 

38:16 John’s plugs

• Website: antiwar.com

• Personal site: antiwarwarvet.com

• Instagram @antiwarwarvet

• God Weeps for His Church, article on the Bad Roman website