70. Pawns of the Military-Industrial Complex with Jamie Cain

About this Episode

Jamie Cain, host of the Liberty Uninterrupted podcast, joins Craig to discuss the military-industrial complex as someone who lived as its pawn. Despite his father’s warning that he would not be fighting for freedom but rather for lobbyists and bankers, at 17 years old, liberty-loving Jamie joined the military. A few years later, Jamie left the military out of his love of liberty, having learned that war is a racket. Since then, he has had some success talking young people out of joining the military by exploring their reasoning for doing so and turning their patriotic logic on its head. Other times, shocking young people by being brutally honest is the only way, but Jamie is not scared of awkward conversations. 

With Craig equally likely to blow up comfortable public narratives, these two could write the book on conversations guaranteed to ruin Thanksgiving dinner! In this episode, they share their views on the military-industrial complex, its propaganda, recruiting and indoctrination techniques. The Military-Industrial Complex is the murdering wing of the state. It indoctrinates and enslaves young Americans as pawns in wars for the financial gain of special interest groups and politicians. 

Craig and Jamie envision a world where America’s competitors act the way America has, policing the world in the name of democracy, bombing critical infrastructure and setting up occupying forces and military bases. Of course, if anyone tried it, Americans would be rightfully angry. With military recruitment figures at crisis levels, maybe after 20 years of illegal wars it is time to bring the troops home.

Connect with Jamie:

Website

• Instagram

• Twitter

• Facebook

• Practical Christology

• TikTok

Liberty Uninterrupted podcast on:

• Apple

• Spotify

• YouTube

Episode Timestamps:

2:23 – Who is Jamie Cain?

• Podcast host at Liberty Uninterrupted 

• Voluntaryist with a libertarian podcast

• Joined the military at 17 years old

• War is a Racket – Major General Smedley Butler

• Dad’s advice at the start of his military career:

  • Remember that you are not fighting for freedom

• Wanted to join the army since he was seven years old

• Rich people all over the world send the poor to fight their wars

  • After getting rich from taxes

  • Their children do not join the military

9:15 – Why shouldn’t people join the military?

• The praise that military men receive helps keep people signing up

• Financial benefits help too

• More veterans have committed suicide than soldiers died in Afghanistan

• Military men believe they are doing the right thing

• Shaming soldiers is not going to change their mind

  • They don’t sign up to fight proxy wars

    • Or to support the Military-Industrial Complex

    • Or to be used as war game pawns

• Shame the Military-Industrial Complex, not the people involved

  • They don’t get to choose the jobs they do

    • End up in military prison if they refuse a job

• Soldiers sign a contract to become the state’s property

  • Even state military guards are misused

• During covid, citizen’s liberties were restricted but no help came from the military

• After six years, Jamie realized he had been lied to

  • Clung to protecting his buddies

• Jamie was woken up by Ron Paul in 2012 Presidential Election speeches

  • Said invading Iraq and Afghanistan was wrong

  • Talked about why the Middle East hated Americans

  • Read The Revolution: A Manifesto – Ron Paul

• Ron Paul’s “Giuliani Moment”

• We should write a book on how to ruin Thanksgiving dinner

• The United States Government has killed a holocaust worth of people

• The Middle East are angry because we are occupying their land

  • Children dying

    • Bombing hospitals

    • Bombing water supplies

    • Bombing weddings

  • Imposing sanctions

• We are not a “Christian Nation.”

  • Anarchism is what Jesus would do

• What would happen if other nations treated Americans the way we treat the Middle East?

  • We would not remain peaceful

• The US made Al-Qaeda recruitment easy through:

  • Drone strikes

  • Dropping bombs

  • Killing families

19:54 – Everyone has a man crush on Ron Paul

• Christians don’t vote

• Even Ron Paul, who:

  • Used the platform honorably

  • Woke many people up

  • Influenced culture

  • Used the system against itself

• If Ron Paul couldn’t change the system, no one can

• Anarchists don’t vote

• The state and military are backed by Satan

• Power corrupts even the best of intentions

  • Be it political or military

• Jamie’s dad’s speech annoyed him

  • But it helped him to understand Ron Paul’s words

  • Left him open to the truth

38:30 - Should we pull the troops back and simply defend the US?

• No one is going to come and kill Americans

  • There are 400 million guns in the US

• Taking guns from everyone does not make sense

  • More money and power will go to the state

  • Gun control is a means of controlling people

• Other countries have no interest in attacking the US

  • There is no advantage to doing so

    • Scott Horton and anitwar.com

• We can’t put military bases across the world without upsetting some people

  • There is no such thing as peacekeeping soldiers

  • They appear as an occupying force

• Our government is our biggest threat

  • China isn’t taking half my pay

  • China is not taking our guns away

  • China is not killing my neighbour for smoking weed

• Those who don’t vote have the right to complain about who is in power

  • Voters give power to the system through participation

  • They love it when their side is in control but not when the opposition has power

• Murray Rothbard – For a New Liberty: The Libertarian Manifesto

48:55 – Talking young people out of joining the military

• Jamie meets a lot of young people

  • They ask him for advice regarding joining the military

  • He asks them, “Why do you want to join the military?”

    • Establishes their reasoning

  • Often they say it because they feel they should

    • This is due to propaganda

  • Follow-up questions revolve around their answers

    • If they say they feel that they should, he asks “Do you come from a patriotic family?” and “What’s so patriotic about joining the military?”

  • Maybe it is more patriotic to stay home and build communities and families

    • Use their own reasoning and apply it to them not joining up

  • “What’s so exciting about getting your leg blown off for oil?”

  • Blow up their narrative

  • Every war since WWII that the US has been involved in is illegal under the constitution

  • Who wants to kill people they don’t even know?

54:58 – Do the police help?

• They didn’t prevent the slaughter of children in Uvalde

• The Supreme Court says they have no duty to protect anyone

• In an anarchist society, there is no monopoly on protection services

• Covid proved that police exist to protect the state

  • And politicians

• Libertarian views might not be socially appropriate

  • But we should open our mouths anyway

  • Be honest

• The military treats individuals like trash

  • Pawns in wars

  • No life skills outside the military

    • People get stuck

1:00:19 – We won’t all agree

• If you ask Craig a question, you will get his honest answer

• People do not all agree

  • If a voluntary society came tomorrow, people would still argue philosophy

  • Life is not black and white – Craig

  • There’s room for nuance – Jamie

• The military-industrial complex is the murdering wing of the state

  • It’s using Americans to build an agenda

• The Army military recruitment is down tremendously

  • Go woke, go broke

  • 20 years of war might have woken people up

  • The military has a serious recruiting problem – Congress must fix it

  • If numbers are down, will something new happen to make people patriotic?

---

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56. Following God Beyond the Blue Line with Terrell Carter

About this episode

Terrell Carter is a pastor and the president of a community development organization. At 16, he felt the call to ministry to do what he can to improve people’s lives and help different groups understand each other. At 23, he thought he could do that as a police officer, and they offered him benefits that would support his growing family. After 5 years, he had to quit because he wouldn’t stand for the corruption in the force and testified against his partner. He’s written several books and runs Rise, a nonprofit organization working to connect communities with local institutions to empower the revitalization of neighborhoods in Greater St. Louis, while pastoring a church and raising his children. 

Terrell has come on the podcast to shed light on his unique perspectives and experiences. He shares with us what it was like growing up black in a predominantly white community, how the police force didn’t fit with his life of Kingdom mission, and what it looks like to actually carry out the call of God to care for other people. One of his life goals is to bring different groups of people together through an understanding of each other, and today he is doing that by sharing his own story with us, who mostly come from a different background than his.

Episode Timestamps:

5:23 Terrell’s story

• African American

• Has a twin brother

• Grandparents and parents were teen parents

• Parents got married, but didn't stay together after Dad went into the army

  • But Dad’s parents helped raise them

• Parents didn’t get through high school

• Mom got in with bad crowds

  • Boys moved in with grandparents

  • She was murdered when boys were 7

• Everything is dedicated to his grandparents because without them, he would have never succeeded

• Moved in with Dad’s new family in Texas at 14

• Only issues were people being suspicious of them since it was a predominantly white town

  • But Brother graduated 4th in class; he graduated 11th

  • His brother won several writing competitions; he won awards for art

  • Both played sports

  • Both earned academic and athletic scholarships

  • Brother still plays baseball

• At 16, Terrell heard the call to ministry

  • Not just made to soak everything up

    • But to influence God’s people from a leadership position

• Returned to St Louis after graduating high school

  • It was a completely different place

  • In 4 years, the community went from majority homeowners to gang members

  • The first thing their grandparents told them was: don’t wear red or blue

  • Still a majority white city

    • Now, everyone thought black young men were all criminals

      • Didn’t know that Terrell was in Bible college

      • His brother had just placed in a huge writing competition

      • They were both in college and working jobs and creating beauty and attending church

• Married

  • Both he and his brother wanted to be husbands and fathers

• When his wife got pregnant, he looked for a job to provide for all their needs

  • Became a police officer

    • Paid for him to finish college

    • Pension

• Started on patrol; wound up on the toughest corner in the city. At night.

• Reassigned to plainclothes narcotics investigator

  • Kicking down doors, search warrants…

  • Turns out, his partner was into illegal activities

    • Terrell didn’t lie for him

      • Because he fears God

      • And because his partner was disrespecting people who were in a different place in life than he was

    • His partner did about 5 years in federal prison

    • When Terrell found out he was going to actually testify in court, he quit his job

      • He was being threatened by multiple people

      • “I had been told in no uncertain terms that if I tried to stand up for those kinds of things, then I would find myself out on the street by myself and something was going to happen to me.” -Terrell

• Went through multiple careers

• Got second doctorate

• Now president of Rise, a community development organization

  • Also, exhibiting art

  • Writing books

  • And pastoring a church

• Life calling: to try and help people understand each other and see God’s image in one another

  • That’s really everyone's calling

18:39 Why Terrell needed to come on the show

• Craig heard Terrell on Michael Storm’s show, Toward Anarchy

• Craig grew up in West Texas with maybe one black kid K-8

  • In middle school in San Angelo, there was a mix of races

  • High school in Fort Worth, was even more, diverse

    • Got to know kids in his class who didn’t fit negative stereotypes

    • Played sports together

  • Now in Memphis, the most diverse city he’s lived in

• “One of the challenges we have as Christians in the 21st century is we don't embrace that diversity.” - Terrell

• 3 books were written to help white Christians Understand that their experience is different from everyone else's

  • Healing Racial Divides: Finding Strength in our Diversity

  • Police on a Pedestal: Responsible Policing in a Culture of Worship

  • Taking Apart Bootstrap Theology: Gospel of Generosity and Justice

• MLK said that the most segregated hour of the week is during church

  • People worship with people they’re similar to

  • If there’s someone of a different race within a majority church, chances are, they're of the same economic background as the rest of the congregation

    • Still have a common understanding of the world; speak the same language

23:12 Terrell’s time on the force

• Arresting somebody knowing they were a child of God

  • “Whatever their life circumstances may have been… God created them and I don't get to judge them based on how their life turned out.” - Terrell

• There was a church parking lot in St. Louis where he used to write police reports

  • The pastor got killed by a kid he had taken under his wing

    • No one wanted to take over his position

    • Terrell’s seminary asked him to step in

• He worried someone he arrested would come in and lash out at him

  • He had a signal to his wife to get the kids and flee

  • Someone he’d arrested for domestic violence approached him

    • And said thank you

    • Terrell had treated him like a human

      • Talked to him on the way to jail

      • Encouraged him to turn his life around

        • He did

  • Terrell got in trouble at work for trying to help people improve

    • The police department just wants the cops to gather statistics and arrest people, not care about them

• “I didn't treat people like they were animals. I tried to treat them like they were children of God and that they may be experiencing a negative life circumstance, but that didn't have to be where they were going.” - Terrell

  • Not the normal attitude

  • They were never told to go help people; they were told to not do anything stupid

• Could work a secondary job (like security) in uniform with all rights and power of a policeman

  • A sergeant told him to stop and just get overtime instead

29:48 Craig’s background

• Wore a thin blue line bracelet

• Defending all cops’ actions

  • “They’re just following/enforcing the law”  

• Realized police are there to protect the state, not citizens

• Then George Floyd got killed

  • Murdered

  • Craig would have once been one of the guys saying, “If he had just not resisted, he would not have been killed”

32:02 How we got here

• White people are in power and everyone else is subject

  • That’s the system that's in place

    •  Doesn't make white people bad

  • Certain people groups’ existence has been criminalized

    • Black women have been dubbed “welfare queens” – by a president

      • For the record, white women use social services more

    • Black men are assumed to be violent criminals

      • The culture of fear surrounding black people has been built up

    • Policing began to control the Native American population trying to get their land back

      • And then escaped or released slaves

• Police are there to protect against all crimes and criminalized peoples

  • “It doesn't matter what a police officer does, as long as they make white people feel better or feel protected, then we're okay.” -Terrell

  • But if police treat white people like they do minorities, they get in legal trouble

    • Minorities are believed to deserve it

• White people often ask, “Why didn’t he just cooperate?”

  • Why can’t they just do what they’re told??

    • Sounds like a slavery question

  • Why can’t they get along with everyone else?

  • “That's from a position of power when you have not experienced what these people groups have experienced. And so that's part of what the challenge is.” - Terrell

  • The state is an agent of slavery

• Sports example

  • Lebron James tried to speak out

    • Was silenced

    • “Just because he makes millions of dollars doesn't mean that people respect or view him as fully human. No, they view him as a commodity for their entertainment.” - Terrell

38:18 Trying to reconcile policing as a Christian (not to mention a pastor)

• “There's no way to reconcile them other than saying, ‘I'm just going to do what I'm told. I'm not going to think about it.’” - Terrell

  • Told himself there were no other prospects

• From the very beginning, people were expecting him to falsify reports

• He was told to go with the system

  • Pushback was dangerous

41:43 Terrell’s life now

• Has a handful of friends from the force

• Many officers have forgotten the past

  • But writing books opens old wounds

• Most are still mad he didn't toe the line 

• All his friends from the force kept being cops

  • Some acquaintances quit

• Several readers of his books have told him they wish they could have been as brave as he was

  • Or that someone in their department would have stood up because maybe they would have joined him

44:04 Rise

• Community development corporation that seeks to make safer, healthier, more equitable communities and neighborhoods in St. Louis city and St. Louis, Madison, and St. Claire counties in Illinois

• Builds or assists others in building affordable housing

  • Government funds cut the rent just about in half for those in need

  • Give funds to female or minority-owned construction companies

  • Fund developers who are looking to improve the health of the community

  • Assist cities and municipalities with planning

• Fits pretty well with the call to make people's lives better

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45. Radically Following Jesus with Shane Claiborne

In this episode, Shane Claiborne joins us to talk about living like Jesus, abortion, gun violence, Christian nationalism, and whether we should get involved in politics as a way to help others live in freedom. 

We know the teachings of Jesus, but what does it look like to actually follow them? How can we care for other humans as God instructed, and how can we do that when we live amidst a corrupt and often unjust government? As Shane points out, “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen savior.” Our Lord was killed by the government. We should not trust in our rulers, but in Him, but, as Shane would argue, we can use their system to help people by getting bad policies changed.

Who is Shane Claiborne? He is a radical advocate for living as if Jesus really meant what He said. He heads up an intentional, simple-living Christian community called Red Letter Christians, and is the co-founder of The Simple Way, an intentional neighborhood-based Christian community in North Philadelphia. Shane has been to jail multiple times while advocating for the poor and against war. You can connect with him on his personal website, Twitter, email, and Instagram. 

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Timestamps:

1:26 What following Jesus looks like

• “Man, I was pretty together, met Jesus, and He messed me up.” -Shane

  • Teachings like

    • To be great, become the least

    • Love your enemies

    • Sell possessions and give to the poor

  • Started a community for local homeless people who were being evicted from a church. They

    • Fix up abandoned houses

    • Create gardens

    • Paint murals

    • Care for neighbors’ needs 

7:24 Pro-life or just anti-abortion?

• “We shouldn't be in other countries dropping bombs on people” -Craig

• One-issue voting is inconsistent

• Christians are the obstacle to progress

9:45 A Bible in one hand; a newspaper in the other

•  Know what's going on in the world around you

• “When you look at Jesus, He was talking about the Kingdom of God coming on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Not just something we go up to when we die, but something we bring down while we're alive.” - Shane

• Study the Bible and sociology together

11:41 Christian Nationalism

• Trump didn’t change the church; he revealed their true beliefs 

• “A lot of white Christians have been shaped more by whiteness than by Christ.” -Shane

• People use the Gospel to justify all kinds of atrocities

• Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

• Compare Trump and his policies to The Sermon on the Mount

• Christians betrayed Jesus with a kiss for a couple seats on the Supreme Court

• Welcome the stranger -- not because you're Republican or Democrat, but because you follow Jesus, and that is His example

• “A lot of times it's been more Fox news or a political party that's shaping our imagination than the Gospel” -Shane

• Christians wind up saying ugly things like that they want to go to the border and shoot people when they follow Trump instead of Christ

19:15 Nothing new

• People fear the transfer of power from white people

  • They want to take America back; to make it great again

    • To counteract any progress Black Lives Matter made

• Fear and love cannot occupy the same space 

  • “What would America look like if love rather than fear were compelling our policies and shaping our minds on a lot of these things?” -Shane

22:45 Debate: Do we need to get involved in politics to love our neighbor?

• Shane: Laws can either improve or destroy people's lives

  •  We need to work to get harmful laws changed for the good of our neighbor

• Craig: Politics are not our thing; we're of a different Kingdom

  •  Jesus didn't use politics to advance His agenda

• Shane: Opting out has consequences

  • We're not putting our hope in a politician; we’re voting to change policies that make life harder for our friends

  • Vote on behalf of those Jesus blessed

    • The poor, the mourning, the refugees, the incarcerated... 

  • Don't only help them through the ballot. Work every day for their freedom.

  • Fight for laws that make it harder to kill them

• Craig: Ballots don't do that. Voting doesn't change anything and doesn't help anyone.

• Shane: We should use every weapon we have; harness the principalities 

• Craig: Christians live on the fringes of society and shouldn't be involved in the system at all

• Shane: Moving to a community with black folks changed my perspective

  • Dr. King went to jail for political change 

  • “I do believe that the church is a primary instrument for God transforming the world.”

  • God can redeem the system using us

  • Legislation helps people flourish

    • We use it to keep people safe in cars; need for guns too

    • Jesus judges nations on how they cared for the poor

31:14 The early Church’s politics

• They were called atheists because they denied the deity of Rome

• They disrupted the empire by claiming another Emperor

• But Jesus didn’t kill anyone to overthrow the empire

  • He died.

  • And many details leading to His death can be seen as a parody to Caesar’s rule

• “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen Savior.” - Shane

• Irreconcilable vocations

  • Brothel, executioner, anyone who had to kill for the state

    • Jesus said love your enemies, which means not killing them

• They were consistently against all violence

  • Abortion, execution, gladiators…

36:09 Living like Christians

• People use the Bible to justify terrible things

• We cannot live like a Christian and go against the teachings of Christ

• Gandhi wished we would. He liked Jesus, but was not a fan of the church

• We should view the entire Bible’s contents through the lens of Jesus 

39:13 Guns into Gardens Project; Beating Guns book

• Old Testament prophets speak of turning swords into plows

  • Similarly, turning guns into garden tools

    • And crosses

      • One says I want to kill; the other says I’m willing to die

    • And jewelry for victims of gun violence to wear and sell

  • People say it's not a gun problem; it's a heart problem

    • It's both

    • God transforms the heart; people transform the laws

  • Jesus should inspire us to protect life

42:04 The American Revolution

•   Claimed to be following God

  •  If they were, they never would have gone to war 

  • America began with guns. It's impossible to imagine our country without them

    • How else could they have started a country on stolen land with stolen labor?

42:56 Red-letter Christian Intentional Community

• A glimpse of Heaven on Earth

• Sharing everything in common end taking care of each other

• Reducing gun violence through:  

  • Hospitality

  • Drug addiction recovery

  • Lifting people out of the ditch

    • Figure out what's landing them in the ditch in the first place

      • It’s often government laws and policies

        • So we vote and advocate for change

• It'll probably land you in jail 

  • Charged with a felony for leaving water in the desert for immigrants 

  • Obey the good laws; disobey the bad ones

    • Expose how crazy they are by loudly getting in trouble 

    • A rich tradition of civil disobedience 

    • Be willing to suffer the consequences of exposing injustice

• Issues around the world

  • Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan…

    • Preemptive Love

• We spend more on the military than social uplift and are headed for spiritual death