106. Jesus Has No Flag with Against All Flags Podcast Team

About this Episode

In this episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, host Craig Harguess welcomes Anthony, Nathan, and Wyatt from the Against All Flags podcast. Together, they navigate the turbulent waters of Christian Anarchy, holding steadfast to the conviction of 'No King but Christ.' The episode reveals the transformative power of a Christcentric anarchist viewpoint, as they share heartfelt stories about moving beyond traditional politics and organized religion, while keeping Jesus's teachings at the forefront.

They address the inner turmoil Christians often experience when their obligations to the state appear to conflict with their spiritual convictions. The discussion delves into the historical stances of the early church on nonviolence and examines how contemporary believers reconcile these seemingly contrary paths. 

Personal anecdotes, biblical reflections on flawed earthly rulers, and the unshakable sovereignty of Jesus are woven throughout the narrative, emphasizing the rallying cry 'No king but Christ.' The societal implications of standing against national symbols, such as the choice to stand or sit during the national anthem, are also tackled. 

Craig and his guests reflect on the journey of their respective podcasts, from inception to a firm dedication to merging Christian insights with issues of political culture. They celebrate the mission to guide listeners towards a deep, nonviolent faith that rejects the entanglements of statism and violence, acknowledging the global Christian community, the reach of podcasts, and inspirations like Stephen Rose from AnarchoChristian.

Connect with our guests:

• Follow their Podcast: Against All Flags

• Nathan

  • Instagram: @against_all_flags_pod

• Anthony 

  • Instagrams: @against_all_flags_boomer

    @beltfed_bandit

•  Wyatt

  •  @wyatt_j_d_

Episode Timestamps:

Timestamps:

01:08 Exploring Anarchy Through Fiction

•  Introduction to Joseph Macolino, inspired by Tolkien and Orwell.

• Creation of the fictional universe Evorath, developed from high school to college.

• Joseph's trilogy explores themes of questioning government authority and discovering Christian principles.

12:35 Spreading Christian Anarchy Through Fiction

• The intersection of fiction and Christian anarchism is highlighted.

• Influence of various texts, maintaining a critical perspective.

• Story arc in fantasy series depicts the transition from monarchy to an anarchist society, paralleling historical movements.

• Aim to challenge preconceptions and promote Christian anarchism through storytelling.

19:59 Discussing Writing, Influence, and Christianity

• Focus on Evorath's world-building, where humans are divinely created.

• Discussion on media influence and personal experiences of non-conformity.

• Importance of writers in highlighting societal propaganda and Christian resistance.

• Emphasis on living according to Jesus' teachings despite potential opposition.

28:22 God Is Strategic

• A personal anecdote about a significant encounter and the concept of divine timing.

• Reflection on the creative process and progress in writing projects.

• Introduction of the 'Bad Woman Project' and a call for support.

• Teaser for the content of upcoming books without giving away specifics.

31:46 Expanding on Book Two Characters

• Insight into Averath's characters, including the villain Yazook Stahl.

• Exploration of shapeshifter species and character development.

• Themes of power, corruption, and societal improvement are examined through character arcs.

39:46 Fantasy Series and Libertarian Ideology

• Introduction of diverse races and characters in the third book.

• Characters question tribal loyalties, leading to the formation of a new community.

• Discussion on societal ideals, comparing the fictional society to voluntarism.

• Upcoming books to delve into the complexities of a society striving for harmony post-trilogy.

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97. Christianity Unpacked in "Good Neighbor, Bad Citizen" with Domenic Scarcella

About this Episode

Are we forgetting the rebellious, defiant nature of Jesus? Have we overlooked his active resistance to the political and religious hierarchies of his time, and his challenging calls for us to be good neighbors rather than good citizens? That's what we'll be unpacking in our fascinating conversation with our guest, Domenic , author of the book "Good Neighbor, Bad Citizen". 

 Domenic provides an intriguing reading of Jesus' teachings, bringing to light the elements that often get overlooked in contemporary Christianity. We dissect the Stations of the Cross, Jesus's nonviolent resistance, and how to use his book as a tool for contemplation. 

As we journey through these narratives, we confront the controversial topic of police violence and its relationship to the Christian faith. This episode holds some challenging viewpoints that question the traditional support of law enforcement and military by modern Christians. The non-violent teachings of Jesus and his brutal treatment by the 'good cops' of his day serve as the crux of this discussion. We highlight that violence, be it personal or outsourced, remains a contradiction to the teachings of Jesus, and is thus a sin.

We also carve out time to talk about the unfathomable nature of God, and the significance of the Holy Spirit, offering some new food for thought on the intersection of faith and politics.  Domenic gives us a glimpse into his new sub-stack, extending an invitation to join the ongoing conversation about Christian ethics. As we round off, we reflect on the essence of community, shared faith, and why being both a good neighbor and a bad citizen, as Jesus was, might just be the unconventional perspective we need today. This is one episode that is sure to challenge your perspectives and spark spirited discussions. Tune in, and let's question together!

Connect with Domenic:

• Get the book!

• Follow his Substack - Good Neighbor, Bad Citizen

• Twitter (X) @GoodNeighBadCit

Episode Timestamps:

(00:00) Jesus' Way of the Cross

Domenic Scarcella shares insights from his book on being a good neighbor and citizen, using Jesus' teachings and the principle of no King but Christ.

(12:07) Stations of the Cross in Christianity

Early Christians made pilgrimages to Jerusalem, walking the way of the cross, and Jesus chose to be a good neighbor despite brutal treatment by civil authorities.

(26:02) Contemporary Christianity and the Nature of Christ

Contemporary Christianity, faith and presence, the temptation of Christ, Gospels as a guide, Jesus' resilience, God's gifts, the role of the cross in redemption.

(34:28) Cross and Nonviolence

Jesus teaches nonviolence, defiance of hierarchy, and humbling of authorities for redemption.

(45:05) Reflections on the Cross Stations

Veronica's role in Jesus' crucifixion and the importance of women in his ministry, along with the good neighbor model of crime and justice.

(53:35) Correcting Bad Theology, Bible Importance

Jesus corrects bad theology and prioritizes himself over the Bible, as shown in his death by good cops.

(56:59) Good Cops and Violence in Christianity

Police violence and Christianity, good cops led to Jesus' death, the entire system protects the state, Jesus practiced non-violence, early church's stance on non-violence.

(01:07:22) Holy Spirit and Book Promotion

Seeking the Holy Spirit, exploring the intersection of faith and politics, and discussing the harmony between anarchism and Christianity.

(01:11:28) Faith and Community Conversation

Domenic discusses community, shared faith, and how Jesus was a good neighbor and bad citizen in this passionate conversation.

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82. What do jiu-jitsu and anarchism have in common? with Tyler Rose

About this Episode

What happens when the Bad Roman meets a Christian Anarchist while training for jiu-jitsu? He invites him on the show, of course. Tyler Rose and Craig discuss Christianity, anarchy philosophy, self-reliance, and their experiences in the jiu-jitsu gym. They discuss why the term “good cop” is an oxymoron and contrast the need for a sovereign state with enforcers with self-reliance and the benefits of learning jiu-jitsu.

There seem to be a lot of libertarian or anarchism-inclined people amongst those who are regularly at the gym training in jiu-jitsu; many hold to ideas of decentralization, individualism, and self-reliance. Tyler suggests that jiu-jitsu has everything for the intellectual and anyone who is athletically built. Craig and Tyler talk about the various types of people they’ve met and their experiences grappling in the gym. As a Christian and a pacifist, one of the neat things about jiu-jitsu is its ability to teach anyone how to control any violent situation while deciding exactly how much damage their opponent will sustain as they take control of any violent incident to protect themselves or their family. If you practice a martial-art or have ever thought about taking up jiu-jitsu, this episode is a must-listen!

Tyler Rose:

Fountain Memphis – Pentecostal church in Bartlett

Brotherhood jiu-jitsu in Mountainview Arkansas

Memphis Judo and Jiu-jitsu

Episode Timestamps:

1:48 – Who is Tyler Rose?

• Pentecostal 

• Got into politics at age 15 with an interest in American political history

• Saw the revolutionary war as ‘God inspired’

• Became libertarian, then anarchist

• Self-reliance is important

• Grew up in North Memphis

7:56 – We don’t need a sovereign government or their cops

• The church should help the vulnerable, widows, and orphans

• It was done with consensual aid in the early church

• All laws end in death

• If it’s not worth someone dying over, don’t call the cops

• Good cops cannot exist

• The job of governing others is inherently evil

• Law enforcement is nothing but a gang

• Cops can disrespect a man, and he can’t do anything back

• If any man without a badge and gun spoke like a cop, they would be punched

• Cops have lost respect for other men

• “Just following orders” is a terrible excuse

• Tyler’s “friend” who was a cop, was bragging about injuring a man on the street

21:40 – Don’t rely on the police; learn jiu-jitsu instead

• Men should be able to defend themselves and their families on their own

• That’s why jiu-jitsu was attractive to Craig

• The jiu-jitsu community is very encouraging

• The anarchist and jiu-jitsu communities seem to overlap quite a bit

• People who are athletic and smart tend to enjoy jiu-jitsu

• Jiu-jitsu is great for increasing physical strength

• But it's still better to use defense and control the fight than overpower anyone

• Jiu-jitsu is good for teaching children discipline and self-defense

• Jiu-jitsu is the most popular art that avoids punching people but will still give the sportsman the advantage in a fight

• There’s no need to harm your drunk uncle 

• You can put someone out calmly with jiu-jitsu

• The argument can be over without ever injuring a person

• At 56 years old, Henzo could defend himself against a random attack on the subway

• It gives confidence in one’s capabilities to be well-prepared in any situation

• Jiu-jitsu can aid women in self-defense as well

• When Tyler began, he got his but kicked by a teenage girl who weighed much less than him

52:40 – Anarchy philosophy

• No King But Christ means, “I already have a king. I don’t need a politician.”

• There are two responses to the term anarchy

• People would just run the streets shooting people because there are no laws

• No, people don’t shoot other people because they are good people

• It’s still wrong to violate life, liberty, and property

• Anarchists aren’t out there throwing Molotov cocktails

• It’s in our best interest to get along

• Craig thinks jiu-jitsu and anarchy are similar in that everyone encourages and helps their fellow man to do better and succeed 

• Tyler agrees

• Tyler has noticed that most regular jiu-jitsu practitioners hold to ideas of decentralization and self-reliance

• They are intelligent enough to know they need to defend themselves

• They are mostly libertarian and close to anarchism

• Maybe even anarchists without realizing it or saying it

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69. From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian with John Krueger

About this Episode

Craig is joined by John Krueger for a conversation about his journey from being an angry Anarcho-Capitalist to a peaceful Anarcho-Christian. Unjust police killings, SWAT raids gone wrong and harsh lockdowns made John angry. He was eager to learn how to use a gun and imagined himself needing to protect his family from police violence. In the midst of this, the Holy Spirit met John and showed him a peaceful option.

Libertarian philosophy is peaceful, but we need Jesus and His word to have the whole picture. Craig and John advocate for Christian pacifism and examine what was going on in their hearts at the points when they both contemplated joining the military. Craig and John discuss the libertarian and Christian anarchist positions on the decriminalization of drugs, the real needs of terrorists, the US at war, gun control, and other contentious current issues.

The state is coercion and violence. Laws are enforced with fines that are begrudgingly paid to avoid the threat of violence or time spent in a cage. You cannot make people peaceful like this, using the state’s methods. But rather, we need to be those who allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to change the hearts and minds of those surrounding us; that is how social change works in the Kingdom. Let’s listen to Jesus and do things His way, forsaking violence and anger. Let’s work towards peace.

Connect with John Krueger on

• Practical Christology

• TikTok

Episode Timestamps:

1:27 – Who is John Krueger?

• From Columbus, Ohio

  • Grew up attending church

• 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 stood out

  • Paul writes about grace

• Journey to anarchism

  • Read Blue Like Jazz

    • Jesus was not a republican or a conservative

    • Became politically independent

  • Eventually considered voting

    • Began researching libertarianism

      • Clicked with his understanding of the Grace of God

  • Took a few more years to become an anarcho-capitalist

8:58 – Libertarians, drugs, and terrorists

• It’s easy to understand decriminalizing marijuana 

• Harder to understand decriminalizing heroin use

  • People shouldn’t be locked in a cage for it

  • People should be free to make their own choices

    • Provided they aren’t hurting others

• Osama Bin Laden needed Jesus

  • Not bombs

  • We can’t bomb people into peace

    • If we bomb all sinners, there will be no one left

• John and Craig let go of the war stuff last

  • The history of the Middle East is important

  • The US is still at war

    • More people are mad at the US for continuously bombing them

• Jesus said in His Kingdom:

  • You rule by washing feet

    • Only pagans lord it over their subjects

  • But instead, our “Christian Nation” goes to war

    • To spread democracy

• We don’t need the government for roads

• We don’t need police

• Losing friends because of speaking out about:

  • Getting troops home

  • Veteran suicides

  • Broken men and families

  • Sending the poor to fight a rich man’s war

20:11 – Craig and John considered joining the military

• Craig wanted to kill people out of anger after 911

  • Application rejected

    • 4 pounds over the weight limit

• John wanted to join the military because he felt powerless

  • Wanted to be great in battle - like David

  • Experienced God’s compassion for those killed on both sides

• Christians still justify war and killing

  • Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father

  • There is nothing about Jesus’ life that says you can kill in war

• Pacifism is the way for Christians

  • Craig still gets a hard time from Christians for his pacifist stance

  • The early church was 100% pacifist

    • Even to their own deaths

  • Jesus healed the Roman soldier and admonished Peter

    • When Jesus disarmed Peter, he disarmed every Christian

26:24 – Libertarians and Gun Control

• After shootings those on the left talk about taking away guns

• But guns will be taken away by force

  • Giving more power to the state

• Need to study history

• We don’t advocate for gun control

  • It’s enforced by violence

  • We should bear God’s peace instead

• The left sees calls to reduce state size as calls to let people starve

• John does not own guns, 

  • Only advocates for less government action

• We don’t use the state for any reason

• The same people who take guns away are those who shoot unarmed black men

• Fines are enforced through the threat of violence

• The ‘hero’ who ended the life of a would-be shooter still ended a life

• Jesus would not be training churches to enact violence

• We are here to bring the gospel to people

37:10 – From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian Anarchist

• When John was an An-Cap he was angry at the state

  • Police killings made him angry

  • Made him want to get into guns

• Angry at government shutdowns because of shutdowns

• Holy Spirit showed him it would be better to defy the government in peaceful ways

  • Sneakily helping people

  • Blessing those who curse

  • Not needing to worry about what to say in front of judges

• Libertarians are never happy with the government

  • No matter who is in power they are stuffing everything up

  • Anger is not the fruit of the spirit

• Romans 11-14 need to be read together

  • Our heart position should be peaceful

• Libertarians need Jesus to have the full picture

42:48 – Romans 13 and libertarianism

• “Submit” and “obey” are not the same

  • When Christians get it wrong: 

    • They end up supporting government atrocities

    • Lives will be ruined

    • The state becomes an idol

• The early church withheld communion from people who worked for the state

  • Unless people were already soldiers

    • And had sworn off killing or oppressing people

    • None wore their weapons

    • All were to serve

• Getting Christians into power will not help

  • It is no longer Christianity

• The power is the wrong power

  • The Holy Spirit is the only power we need

  • Political power is force

  • Christians do not need to take the ”Seven Mountains” of power

  • These do not sound like Jesus

• Polycarp would not denounce Jesus

  • In the face of his own death

  • King Jesus has never done me any harm

• Everything that the state does harms somebody in some fashion

  • If they are helping you, they are harming someone else

  • The state is not a protector

• Jesus Christ is the only King

  • He wants the best for us

54:12 – How should we pray for government?

• We should pray for government and leaders

  • Craig prays for the state to end

  • The current chaos is caused by the state

  • We need to follow Jesus and walk away

  • John prays for leadership to know the gospel

    • Not the American folklore

    • But the true gospel

• Craig will take the words of the early church fathers over pastors

  • When modern pastors disagree with the early church

  • They still screwed things up

  • They aren’t Jesus

  • They were closer in time to Jesus

  • We need to get back to that

    • What we are doing now as the church is not working

• The Reformers had a blind spot when it came to the church

  • They killed people

• The Anabaptists became the Mennonites and Amish

  • They were peaceful

• Catholics are going back to mysticism

  • The church fathers and grace teachings

1:02:54 – Let’s bring it back to Jesus

• Listen to Jesus

  • Love your neighbor

  • Love your enemy

  • Love God

• It’s impossible to follow His teachings

  • But we should try:

    • Working towards good

    • Not working toward violence

    • Not working towards anger or hate

    • Working towards peace

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61. Hope of the Kingdom: How God Wins with Jonathan Cannone

About this episode

Jonathan Cannone is a Jesus-follower, writer, homesteader, teacher, and Kingdom worker. He wrote an article for The Bad Roman blog, The Dream of the City to Come: Do You Not Trust God?, about the Kingdom coming, both now and in the unknown future. 

As Christians, we have hope. We are called to live and act peacefully, and doing this in all of our pursuits may help bring about the Kingdom to our own little corner of the world. Those in power now will not win in the end. God wins eternity. We have to remember this and take a long view of time, a God-view of time.

We know Who wins and we are on His side, all that is required of us is to continuously choose to remain on that side and not fall into the ways of this world and the false promises of man-made power and state-sanctioned violence.  We know the rules of our side, Jesus showed us and told us, and it is our job, as Christians to continuously submit to our faith in his message, even when we must sometimes must obey unjust powers in pursuit of Christ.

Take this episode as a message of encouragement: politicians may seem powerful, but Jesus is the true King. As a Christain you are an ambassador for Heaven, don’t forget to act like it!

Episode Timestamps:

4:10 The Dream of the City to Come: Do You Not Trust God?

• Based on a lifelong obsession with the idea that Jesus’ Kingdom is eternal, and everything else is temporary

  • When Jonathan was little, he loved Bible stories about the unchanging Kingdom

  • And he just taught 4 months of adult Sunday school on it

5:41 Handling [professing] Christians who just aren’t getting it

• To see change, we’ve gotta follow Christ

  • He is our King

• Others are still where we were a decade ago

  • Still clinging to hope in the government

• Do we get outwardly frustrated with them or handle them with velvet gloves?

  • Craig explodes and starts talking about Yemen

    • Gets blank stares

      • It may be coming on a little strong

    • But, “People are dying because of our belief in the state as Christians.” - Craig

  • The vast majority of people in the world claim Christianity

    • If they’d stop believing in the state and follow Jesus, the difference would be huge

• “About 10 years ago… I just completely surrendered my life to God and said, ‘You run things; I'm not good at it.’” - Jonathan

  • Before and after that point, people were dropping bread crumbs to get him where he is now

  • Humor and Scripture led him to understand

    • Also, a wise elder who was very excited about the Kingdom and not at all about the state

  • You don’t realize you’re being red-pilled at the time

  • It takes humility and gentleness to break through to doubters

9:05 It’s so obvious

• It’s so much in our faces that it feels like the media is mocking us

• But somehow, the guy next to us still doesn’t get it

• Craig’s coworker commented that they’re trying to get us into another war with Russia/Ukraine

  • So he had to tell him about the war we’re already in Yemen

    • The guy had to understand Trump’s role in it

      • And the lack of corporate media reporting

    • The guy’s eyes kind of glazed over, but his brain wheels were turning

      • Even if it’s unconscious, the seed gets planted

• There’s just so much information to give the normies, it’s hard to know where to start

  • So many different operations and people

    • Henry Kissinger

• People have already made up their minds how to live and will not deviate

  • Even if gas goes up to $8/gal, they’ll still buy it from the same place like they always have

  • We make choices based on what’s cheapest

    • The cost has already been paid somewhere else

  • “We’ve already made up our mind how we’re gonna live, and the narrative fills in the gaps for us so that it makes sense.” - Jonathan

  • The way we live is insane

    • What we do to the earth

    • What we do to third-world countries

    • What we do to ourselves

    • But we tell ourselves stories to help us sleep at night

• So, the goal is to share the Kingdom story

  • Have everyone marinate in it until it is our story

  • It will change people until they look at the way we live and say, “This is insane. Jesus would never do this.”

13:28 What if Jesus was walking around?

• Imagine 2000 years ago, He might have been walking around with His head in His hands lamenting how people were living

  • Perhaps even more so today

  • He’s shaking His head at us collectively and saying, “You’re not getting it.”

  • Does He get frustrated?

    • He saw the multitudes as sheep without a shepherd

      • And felt compassion

      • He didn’t ask why they were stupid or tell them to stop following Him around

    • We ought to follow His example and not be brash

      • Steven from AnarchoChristian is good at this

        • His show feels like Sunday school taught by an expert

16:33 Satan’s kingdom

• If Satan offered the earthly kingdoms to Jesus, that means he owns them

• People always argue, “If we get enough Christians in office, all will be fixed.”

  • No. Who’s behind this kingdom? 

    • Whose kingdom are you claiming to be part of?

      • You cannot serve both

    •  Is the person lying, stealing, destroying, murdering, and enslaving?

      • That’s not anything like what my King does

20:14 Jesus is King

• Even over those who don’t believe in Him

• Why don’t we take it seriously?

  • Americans don’t know what monarchy is like

    • Closest we have is CEOS, oligarchs, and generals

    • But we want a king

      • People talk about presidents like they should be kings

        • “They're not wanting a representative. They're wanting a king to tell their enemy how to live… [but] they end up telling you how to live too.” - Craig

      • “[Trump] would love to sit in your living room and tell you exactly how to live… I've got a King in my house. And guess what? You're a Christian. You've already got a King too.” - Craig

23:52 Prophets in the Church

• Very few Christians can see through the facade of how the world works 

  • They have the gift of prophecy

• Prophets are not well received; they are so tired of trying and not getting anywhere 

• Most have either

  • Shut their mouths or

  • Left the church

• Most Christians are genuine and trying

  • They can only do what they know to do

• So, to start a conversation, we must first find out where they’re at

25:26 Arguing about authority, aka power

• People always want to say that anyone with power got it from God

  • Which means they’re on His side

  • Might = right?

  • The winner of a political race has God’s blessing

• According to the Bible, power is not about winning

  • Jesus says to lose your life in order to find Life

  • Submission 

    • Paul says slaves need to submit to their masters

      • But of course, they do; they’re slaves! 

      • That’s their job

      • It’s like Paul is saying, “You are the one with the authority to live the way that your King shows you to live.” - Jonathan

      • When you voluntarily submit to someone, they don't win.

        • That relationship is broken and should not be that way

        • You're the one with the power

      • "Everybody knows that you’re not supposed to have slaves, but everybody thinks that is great to have kings." - Jonathan

      • It doesn't matter how many bombs they have

        • They don't win

28:31 Handcuffs

• Jesus promised they'll arrest us and bring us before kings

  • And He will fill our mouths with His words

• If you're in handcuffs, let God use you

  • Allow them to treat you poorly

• "[Submission] doesn't mean you're obeying; there's a reason you're in handcuffs." - Craig

  • Rosa Parks didn’t obey their laws

  • The early church likewise acted without violence

    • It changes people's hearts

      • People come to Christ when they see us respond peacefully

• People claim slavery is over

  • But right now is like an Oprah Winfrey moment

    • “YOU get to be a slave and YOU get to be a slave…”

  • We are all enslaved through taxes

• “Why are you going to put 'em back in power? You're complaining about 'em, they're stealing your money. They're taking that money and going and using it to kill people in other countries and kill people in this country. Stop voting. Stop encouraging the beast. Follow Jesus Christ. You say you're a Christian. Let's do it. Let's follow Jesus Christ.” - Craig

32:28 Principalities

•  We don’t need that kind of power

  • Jesus turned down Satan’s offer to worship him in exchange for power over earthly kingdoms

  • He already had the power He needed

    • Worshiping God gives us power

• When we respond with humility, we remind the principalities of who won

33:26 What Jesus saved us from

• American churches focus only on sin and Hell

• He also defeated the principalities who has been holding humans captive

• DEATH

  • We're going to be raised again like Him

  • We’ll have new, glorified bodies

34:41 We don’t have to envy those in power because they’re the losers

• They’re rebellious 

  • Haven’t confessed Jesus as Lord

    • Whoever does so now will be the firstfruits of the new world

• Their power is only transitory

35:30 Freedom

• Comes from Jesus; not the state!

• Don’t fear those who can only kill the body and not the soul

  • If the worst they can do is kill us, and we don’t fear death, we’re free

• It’s a major choice

  • Can you risk facing what the early church did?

    • Crucified and rocks thrown at them and pulled apart and their heads chopped off and drowned and everything set on fire…

• Consequences for those who compromise with the world

  • If you try to ally with the powers here to avoid persecution, you will face judgment from them

  • “You can't skip the consequences; you just have to choose which ones sound worse.” - Jonathan

38:07 Identity in a nation

• If we identify with or pledge our allegiance to a nation or political party or worship their military, we are telling Jesus we don’t want His Kingdom of peace

  • Just like the Israelites asking for a king

    • God told them they were rejecting Him

  • Pushing for earthly political power is rejecting the Kingdom

    • Rejecting the perfect King we already have

      • No stealing or killing

      • Actually does have our best interests at heart

      • Wants us to have fruitful lives without fear

      • “The state wants you to be afraid. That's how they keep their authority.” - Craig

39:53 Allegiance

• Giving your heart promises everything you have

• Pledging your allegiance doesn’t just mean 

  • “I’m glad to be in the club” or

  • “So happy you’re not worse”

  • It means

    • “If you go to war, I'll do whatever you tell me”

    • “My resources and my thoughts are for you”

• If any part of someone’s life is dedicated to the state, they have not surrendered to Jesus

42:05 Negative energy

• The rulers feed off of negative energy

  • Whatever violence or hate you use, it will be amplified and returned to you

  • Beat them by choosing peace

    • Increase their violence by reacting violently

    • Romans 12

      • Love your enemies

      • Feed them if they’re hungry

      • Comes before Romans 13 about respecting authority

      • How much happier and more reasonable are people who are well fed?

44:00 Our home is yet to come

• Hebrews 13:14

• It’s a mystery, and it’s supposed to be

• Let’s live with anticipation rather than trepidation about the unknown future

• Once we get there, we won’t remember the troubles we had leading up to it

• It should be exciting!!

• Let’s look forward to it with childlike wonder

• Just the idea that this troubled world is going away should make us glad

• We’ll see Him as He is

• We’ll be made like Him

• All the nations will come together in this new reality

  • They’ll collectively ask Jesus how to live

    • And go home and beat their swords into plowshares

47:03 For now

• We are the representation of Jesus on Earth

  • Imperfect

    • All we can say is that our lives are being changed by being part of this project to change the world

  • We believe His plan will come to pass

    • It’s inevitable

      • You don’t have to wonder who’s gonna win

• “There’s something coming, and it’s way better than what’s going on right now… and it’s certainly not through the state.” - Craig

• Our family is in every nation, tribe, and tongue on Earth

  • Then our family is being bombed

    • They are also doing the bombing

    • It’s not about good guys and bad guys

      • It’s that any person could be or become our family

• People are watching us for an example of Christ

  • Let’s hope we are not a stumbling block

  • Consistency is a strong statement

    • Not wavering back and forth between Jesus and politicians

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60. God or Government - Who's in Charge of the World? with Pete Rollo of Rival Nations & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

In this episode, Craig and his better podcast half, Abby Cleckner, are joined by Peter Rollo, founder of the website and blog project Rival Nations. Pete shares the history of Rival Nations, why he started it, why he was anonymous for so long, and where the project is headed. 

If you’ve ever questioned if the world of politics, on any side, be it liberal, conservative, anarchist, or libertarian always seems prone to the ways of this world, to violence. This episode looks at why that is, and why we, as Christians are called to a different kingdom, and we must continue to abide by the ways of that Kingdom, the one Jesus showed us, rather than pursue earthly powers.

Too often we find Christians falling into the fallacy that, if we just get more Christians elected into office things will change, and God’s will can be implemented, with the right leaders, but this is the illusion we see Jesus reject time and time again in the Bible. How do we get to this conclusion? By looking at what Jesus has to teach us. In the second half of the episode, Pete breaks down his article, Christians Can’t Be in Government, to show us exactly who is at the forefront of political power (hint: it is not God!).

We see Israel fall when it turns to earthly Kings, and we see Jesus reject the role of Messiah, in an effort to show us God’s way, not Man’s. Rival Nations is a digital archive of Pete’s theological journey, and it all started with seeing Jesus as a political force, not in his pursuit of political power, but, rather, in his rejection of it. Let us know what you think and the comments, or by sharing your thoughts on social media!

Episode Timestamps:

1:46 Pete’s Background

• Public ministry and expressing “radical” viewpoints

4:08 The difficulty of engaging those we disagree with

6:31 Peter’s Political Journey 

• No political ideology or government aligns with Jesus

• Jesus is the alternative to the earthly missions of political movements

• Jesus is political

8:27 Creation of Rival Nations (formerly done anonymously)

• Peter created the website as a tool for himself

11:30 How the Political realization of Jesus transformed Peter’s Theology

• Word Gospel was not a Hebrew word, but a word caesar was using and Jesus co-opted the phrase

• Early church’s focus on Jesus

• Modern church’s alignment with the Roman Catholic church vs. the early church of historic Christianity

• Anabaptist 

16:17 Peter’s Article - Christians Can’t Be in Government

• If you take Jesus seriously, we must abstain from seeking political power

• The myth of “getting more Christians in office will fix things”

• George W. Bush claimed to follow Jesus vs. his actions while in office (war)

• Can a Christian run a secular government, without engaging in violence

• Governments cannot love their enemy the way Jesus calls on us to love ours

• Satan offered Jesus political power and Jesus rejected it

  • Politics pulls us away from God?

  • Satan wants more Christians in office

20:22 Did God create the government (or any government)?

• 1 Samuel 8

• Humanity was given authority over animals and nature - not humanity

• Israel had no king and was supposed to be an example, but they fell into wanting kings

  • Violence always comes from wanting to control others

• The whole power structure has to be turned upside down to follow Jesus

• The notion of “Jesus for President” can never make sense with the current system

27:06 Jesus being tempted with political power and rejecting it

• Jesus avoided term Messiah

  • Had violence in its history

• People kept trying to make him king

• Satan directly tempts him

• Jesus is not going to come back and be violent

  • Why would Jesus change his mind?

• Jesus will not “slay out enemies”

  • Our propensity toward violence drives us to this thinking

• The myth of American Cowboy

  • “Might makes right”

  • Our enormous military power

  33:07 Opt-Out and Follow Jesus

• America is not our nation, Christnation is

• We are ambassadors of the Kingdom of Heaven

• But what about paul using his Roman citizenship?

  • We do what we need to survive practically and leverage situations for our mission for God and further the Gospel

• Accepting Jesus as king of your life is the only citizenship you get to choose to participate in

  • What paul talked about was a rival nation to Rome

38:59 “God puts people in political power”

• Reading Romans 13 without reading Romans 12

• Old vs. New Testament

• 3 Temptations of Jesus

• Is Satan only interested in Jesus worshiping him?

• If we know the temptation, why would we partake in it?

• Does Romans 13 work for Nazi Germany?

  • Then it doesn't work for you and America

44:49 God in the Process of Resorting All Things

• Escetoloy

• Times Theology

• Eternal Torment 

48:10 Connect with Peter and Rival Nations

• Rivalnations.org

Facebook Page, Instagram, Twitter, RSS

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51. Jesus the Anarchist with Alexandre Christoyannopoulos and Nicholas Harrelson

In this episode, Alexandre Christoyannopoulos, author of Christian Anarchism, Tolstoy's Political Thought, and Essays in Anarchism and Religion, joins your host Craig Harguess alongside our beloved Bad Roman contributor, Nicholas Harrelson, from across the pond. He literally wrote the book on Christian anarchism. Alex is French and Greek, he is from Belgium and has lived in the UK since 1997. He holds a BA in economics, a MA in international relations and European studies, and a Ph.D. in politics and religion. He has studied all the major thinkers in anarchism and written several academic publications, which you can (and should) explore on his website.

In addition to being an expert scholar on Christian Anarchy, Alex is a teacher, lecturer, and Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy. On the show, he shares what he has learned, about Jesus and Anarchy and how we can better examine our own philosophy on the topic.

The episode is a wide-ranging conversation that covers everything from pacifism and turning the other cheek to Romans 13 and the many strains of anarchism – how we can all work together? Was Jesus really an anarchist?

EPISODE TIMESTAMPS:

2:15 Alex’s Timeline

• Did not start off life religious

• Grew up in Belgium with Greek and French parents

• Went to uni in England

• Near the end of his MA, developing curiosity in religion

  • Literally finished his degree as 9/11 happened

  • Decided to pursue Ph.D. in the relationship between religious and political structures

    • Started studying what Jesus said

    • Then found Tolstoy

      • Changed Ph.D. to his political/religious philosophy

      • Tolstoy takes Jesus literally and applies His teaching to the state

      • But there are gaps

        • He ignores Paul

        • He doesn’t address “render unto Caesar”

    • Went down the rabbit hole of other writers about Jesus and politics

    • Wound up with a thesis on Christian Anarchism

      • Goal: to take what others have said about Jesus’ political views and weave them together

7:52 Craig’s Timeline

10:36 Interpreting Scripture leads to anarchy

• You can make the Bible support almost any point you make

  • But it’s pretty clear and consistent on love and non-violence

    • Turning the other cheek is what sets Christianity apart

    • The cross is an example of love and forgiveness even unto death

  • It’s often the rejection of violence that leads to the rejection of the state

    • Christianity, if followed consistently, means rejecting violence

      • The state is violent

      • The state causes citizens to be violent

      • It claims a monopoly on “legal/good” violence

  • The average Christians firmly believe we need to infiltrate the state

    • “There’s no evidence of Jesus using the state to promote His message of peace.” - Craig

15:00 Nick’s Timeline

• Liberal

• Southerner, patriotic

• Military: 2 tours in Iraq, wounded, many friends committed suicide after

• Worked in the senate 3 years

• Came to pacifism from reading Tolstoy

  • Reconciled Christianity with his new view on the world

• Recognized the state runs on coercion and violence

  • “I came to realize that, to remain consistent, I had to probably be an anarchist as well.” - Nick

• Identified with Tolstoy’s military experience

• Sunday Christians

  • “It’s like we go into a church and turn on this mindset, and then we leave the church and think nothing of it for the rest of the week.” - Nick

  • Tolstoy offered consistency

18:08 Following the Early Church

• “Not everything that can be done through the state has to rely on violence in order to achieve anything, but a lot of it does. A lot of laws ultimately rely on the threat of violence.” - Alex

• The Early Church had nothing to do with Rome

  • Some of them knew Jesus

    • Maybe we should follow their example

• It’s risky and uncertain to go against the status quo

24:19 Anarchism vs Christian Anarchism

• In anarchism, there is a spectrum from very confrontational to strictly non-confrontational

• Christian spectrum

  • From turning over the tables to turning the other cheek

• But we must resist evil, even if we cannot use violence

27:20 Turning the other cheek

• Not passive action

• Surprises attacker

• Makes observers question who is in the right

• Gives you the higher moral ground

• Clearly communicates that you do not approve of what the attacker is defending

30:01 Violence or Pacifism? 

• Martin Luther King Jr. followed in the way of Gandhi

• “You’re going to push the state away a lot quicker by being non-violent because the state only understands violence.” - Craig 

• A lot of people have emulated Gandhi and had peaceful movements of resistance

• A study was done in 2011 compared different campaigns against oppression,

  • Nonviolent ones were twice as effective 

  • and more likely to last peacefully after the oppressors had been defeated

  • All fights against oppression are more likely to fail than succeed

• Reacting violently pulls the enemy together against you

  • Non-violence might cause some of the people involved to question what they're doing

• Martin Luther King jr. learned a lot about his nonviolent tactics from Gandhi

  • C.S. Lewis would argue that all truths point towards God

  • Gandhi was a fan of Jesus but didn't like the way Christians were living

  • Dr. King learned a lot about how Jesus lived and taught from a non-Christian

• A lot of Christians take inspiration from Tolstoy

  • but they're afraid to admit it

  • He's an "awkward Christian" because he doesn't hold to some theological views

• “Go back to the source– as in picking up the Bible, reading it and thinking, ‘Well, this is more radical than they tell us every Sunday.’” - Alex

• Anabaptists and Catholic Workers are good current examples of peaceful radicals

41:15 Jesus and Paul

• Simplify. Focus on Jesus.

  • Theology gets so messy and confusing

  • We are not followers of Paul

  • If Jesus was really the son of God and rose from the dead, shouldn't we view him as the most important person to follow?

• Romans 13

  • The chapter on obeying government

  • Addressed in Alex's book

  • Maybe an exegesis on The Sermon on the Mount

  • Must be read In the context of chapter 12

  • Nick's sermon

44:17 Anarchist societies

• Monastic orders

• The Benedict Option

  • Communities that defy the state simply by ignoring it

• Tolstoy believed that Jesus’ orders were not to become separate from the world but to live within it

  • To be different, maybe even “awkward”

    •  but not withdrawn

  • The Catholic Workers have a community in rural areas

    • but hospitality houses in urban places

48:19 Anarcho-capitalism?

• A hot potato topic

• Most anarchists believe that their ideals push people toward mutual aid

  • Capitalism is fundamentally against that

    • It’s about competition

    • And individual land ownership

      • Which, at the end of the day, requires some sort of police force to enforce

      • What happens when your accumulation of land starts to be to the detriment of others?

52:34 Secular versus Christian anarchists

• Often work together just fine

  • Usually, there's some line drawn

    • Won’t work with violent groups

    • Won’t work with capitalists

• Some anarchists can't stand the idea of having Christ as King

  • They won't even ally themselves with Christian anarchists

• Craig: Why do we allow labels and divisions? There’s bigger fish to fry.

  • “We have the same goals: to see the state go away and to live our life peacefully.” - Craig

    • They don’t have to have Christ as King in order to be allies

• Many anarchists say you must revoke religion to join

  • Because there must be no authority

  • Others just say we must be against the state

• Christians reject the state for 2 general reasons

  • Violence

  • Idolatry

  • Some people say rejecting the state is not enough to call yourself an anarchist

• What everyone can agree on

  • We're against domination

• Most anarchists find themselves passionate about connected issues

  • These are not necessarily addressed in the Gospels

    • But anarchists see them as essential

      • And get upset if others don’t

• “Keep it simple, Stupid” - Craig

1:03:17 People's entrances into anarchism

• From different political sides

• Different religious views

• Different economic philosophies

• Everyone takes small steps 

• Maybe instead of getting mad at people for thinking differently, we should just be patient

  • Maybe they'll eventually learn

  • No need to scream in horror at the very notion of anarcho-capitalism

  • “[If] it's an avenue through which people come your way, then don't close it.” - Alex

1:06:27 Ideological Scale

• Communism emphasizes equality over freedom

• Capitalism/liberalism emphasizes freedom over equality

• Anarchism tries to hold both in equal importance

  • Defends against both communism and capitalism

  • But who will take care of the vulnerable?

    • With great freedom comes great responsibility

      • We should use our freedom to help

1:09:21 Liturgical versus Protestant Christian Antichrists

•  Most come from Protestant backgrounds

  • They are encouraged to read and interpret scriptures for themselves

1:14:48 The first Jewish government

• 1 Samuel 8

  • The Jews choose a state instead of God

  • When Jesus comes, they expect Him to rule according to the type of government they had demanded

    •  rather than the type of rule they had before there were kings in Israel

  • Satan tries to give Jesus a kingdom, 

    • but he already had a Kingdom  

    • He didn't want the earthly one Satan offered

1:16:30 God uses the state

• Something that He wishes we rejected, but He still uses nonetheless

  • Despite what’s evil or problematic about it

• This doesn’t mean we do everything the state demands

• Pay your taxes

  • But give everything else to God

• God wants us to have faith in Him rather than the state

• Follow Jesus’ example rather than the state’s demands when they conflict

• Everything warned about in Samuel, our US government is doing

• “Why are you going to put these people in power when you've already got a king? The best king of all?” - Craig

1:19:40 Were Jesus and the Early Church truly anarchists?

• Yes…

• But the term “anarchist” didn’t exist back then

• And the Roman Empire was different from our form of government

• Answer expounded on in this The Stockholm University Press publication (go directly to the chapter discussed)

• It gets complicated 

• … but yes

1:22:25 Plugs

• List of Publications

• Free Version of Christian Anarchism

• Email

Recommend starting with Christian Anarchism to get a general understanding

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Related Episodes

45. Radically Following Jesus with Shane Claiborne

In this episode, Shane Claiborne joins us to talk about living like Jesus, abortion, gun violence, Christian nationalism, and whether we should get involved in politics as a way to help others live in freedom. 

We know the teachings of Jesus, but what does it look like to actually follow them? How can we care for other humans as God instructed, and how can we do that when we live amidst a corrupt and often unjust government? As Shane points out, “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen savior.” Our Lord was killed by the government. We should not trust in our rulers, but in Him, but, as Shane would argue, we can use their system to help people by getting bad policies changed.

Who is Shane Claiborne? He is a radical advocate for living as if Jesus really meant what He said. He heads up an intentional, simple-living Christian community called Red Letter Christians, and is the co-founder of The Simple Way, an intentional neighborhood-based Christian community in North Philadelphia. Shane has been to jail multiple times while advocating for the poor and against war. You can connect with him on his personal website, Twitter, email, and Instagram. 

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Timestamps:

1:26 What following Jesus looks like

• “Man, I was pretty together, met Jesus, and He messed me up.” -Shane

  • Teachings like

    • To be great, become the least

    • Love your enemies

    • Sell possessions and give to the poor

  • Started a community for local homeless people who were being evicted from a church. They

    • Fix up abandoned houses

    • Create gardens

    • Paint murals

    • Care for neighbors’ needs 

7:24 Pro-life or just anti-abortion?

• “We shouldn't be in other countries dropping bombs on people” -Craig

• One-issue voting is inconsistent

• Christians are the obstacle to progress

9:45 A Bible in one hand; a newspaper in the other

•  Know what's going on in the world around you

• “When you look at Jesus, He was talking about the Kingdom of God coming on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Not just something we go up to when we die, but something we bring down while we're alive.” - Shane

• Study the Bible and sociology together

11:41 Christian Nationalism

• Trump didn’t change the church; he revealed their true beliefs 

• “A lot of white Christians have been shaped more by whiteness than by Christ.” -Shane

• People use the Gospel to justify all kinds of atrocities

• Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

• Compare Trump and his policies to The Sermon on the Mount

• Christians betrayed Jesus with a kiss for a couple seats on the Supreme Court

• Welcome the stranger -- not because you're Republican or Democrat, but because you follow Jesus, and that is His example

• “A lot of times it's been more Fox news or a political party that's shaping our imagination than the Gospel” -Shane

• Christians wind up saying ugly things like that they want to go to the border and shoot people when they follow Trump instead of Christ

19:15 Nothing new

• People fear the transfer of power from white people

  • They want to take America back; to make it great again

    • To counteract any progress Black Lives Matter made

• Fear and love cannot occupy the same space 

  • “What would America look like if love rather than fear were compelling our policies and shaping our minds on a lot of these things?” -Shane

22:45 Debate: Do we need to get involved in politics to love our neighbor?

• Shane: Laws can either improve or destroy people's lives

  •  We need to work to get harmful laws changed for the good of our neighbor

• Craig: Politics are not our thing; we're of a different Kingdom

  •  Jesus didn't use politics to advance His agenda

• Shane: Opting out has consequences

  • We're not putting our hope in a politician; we’re voting to change policies that make life harder for our friends

  • Vote on behalf of those Jesus blessed

    • The poor, the mourning, the refugees, the incarcerated... 

  • Don't only help them through the ballot. Work every day for their freedom.

  • Fight for laws that make it harder to kill them

• Craig: Ballots don't do that. Voting doesn't change anything and doesn't help anyone.

• Shane: We should use every weapon we have; harness the principalities 

• Craig: Christians live on the fringes of society and shouldn't be involved in the system at all

• Shane: Moving to a community with black folks changed my perspective

  • Dr. King went to jail for political change 

  • “I do believe that the church is a primary instrument for God transforming the world.”

  • God can redeem the system using us

  • Legislation helps people flourish

    • We use it to keep people safe in cars; need for guns too

    • Jesus judges nations on how they cared for the poor

31:14 The early Church’s politics

• They were called atheists because they denied the deity of Rome

• They disrupted the empire by claiming another Emperor

• But Jesus didn’t kill anyone to overthrow the empire

  • He died.

  • And many details leading to His death can be seen as a parody to Caesar’s rule

• “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen Savior.” - Shane

• Irreconcilable vocations

  • Brothel, executioner, anyone who had to kill for the state

    • Jesus said love your enemies, which means not killing them

• They were consistently against all violence

  • Abortion, execution, gladiators…

36:09 Living like Christians

• People use the Bible to justify terrible things

• We cannot live like a Christian and go against the teachings of Christ

• Gandhi wished we would. He liked Jesus, but was not a fan of the church

• We should view the entire Bible’s contents through the lens of Jesus 

39:13 Guns into Gardens Project; Beating Guns book

• Old Testament prophets speak of turning swords into plows

  • Similarly, turning guns into garden tools

    • And crosses

      • One says I want to kill; the other says I’m willing to die

    • And jewelry for victims of gun violence to wear and sell

  • People say it's not a gun problem; it's a heart problem

    • It's both

    • God transforms the heart; people transform the laws

  • Jesus should inspire us to protect life

42:04 The American Revolution

•   Claimed to be following God

  •  If they were, they never would have gone to war 

  • America began with guns. It's impossible to imagine our country without them

    • How else could they have started a country on stolen land with stolen labor?

42:56 Red-letter Christian Intentional Community

• A glimpse of Heaven on Earth

• Sharing everything in common end taking care of each other

• Reducing gun violence through:  

  • Hospitality

  • Drug addiction recovery

  • Lifting people out of the ditch

    • Figure out what's landing them in the ditch in the first place

      • It’s often government laws and policies

        • So we vote and advocate for change

• It'll probably land you in jail 

  • Charged with a felony for leaving water in the desert for immigrants 

  • Obey the good laws; disobey the bad ones

    • Expose how crazy they are by loudly getting in trouble 

    • A rich tradition of civil disobedience 

    • Be willing to suffer the consequences of exposing injustice

• Issues around the world

  • Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan…

    • Preemptive Love

• We spend more on the military than social uplift and are headed for spiritual death