60. God or Government - Who's in Charge of the World? with Pete Rollo of Rival Nations & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

In this episode, Craig and his better podcast half, Abby Cleckner, are joined by Peter Rollo, founder of the website and blog project Rival Nations. Pete shares the history of Rival Nations, why he started it, why he was anonymous for so long, and where the project is headed. 

If you’ve ever questioned if the world of politics, on any side, be it liberal, conservative, anarchist, or libertarian always seems prone to the ways of this world, to violence. This episode looks at why that is, and why we, as Christians are called to a different kingdom, and we must continue to abide by the ways of that Kingdom, the one Jesus showed us, rather than pursue earthly powers.

Too often we find Christians falling into the fallacy that, if we just get more Christians elected into office things will change, and God’s will can be implemented, with the right leaders, but this is the illusion we see Jesus reject time and time again in the Bible. How do we get to this conclusion? By looking at what Jesus has to teach us. In the second half of the episode, Pete breaks down his article, Christians Can’t Be in Government, to show us exactly who is at the forefront of political power (hint: it is not God!).

We see Israel fall when it turns to earthly Kings, and we see Jesus reject the role of Messiah, in an effort to show us God’s way, not Man’s. Rival Nations is a digital archive of Pete’s theological journey, and it all started with seeing Jesus as a political force, not in his pursuit of political power, but, rather, in his rejection of it. Let us know what you think and the comments, or by sharing your thoughts on social media!

Episode Timestamps:

1:46 Pete’s Background

• Public ministry and expressing “radical” viewpoints

4:08 The difficulty of engaging those we disagree with

6:31 Peter’s Political Journey 

• No political ideology or government aligns with Jesus

• Jesus is the alternative to the earthly missions of political movements

• Jesus is political

8:27 Creation of Rival Nations (formerly done anonymously)

• Peter created the website as a tool for himself

11:30 How the Political realization of Jesus transformed Peter’s Theology

• Word Gospel was not a Hebrew word, but a word caesar was using and Jesus co-opted the phrase

• Early church’s focus on Jesus

• Modern church’s alignment with the Roman Catholic church vs. the early church of historic Christianity

• Anabaptist 

16:17 Peter’s Article - Christians Can’t Be in Government

• If you take Jesus seriously, we must abstain from seeking political power

• The myth of “getting more Christians in office will fix things”

• George W. Bush claimed to follow Jesus vs. his actions while in office (war)

• Can a Christian run a secular government, without engaging in violence

• Governments cannot love their enemy the way Jesus calls on us to love ours

• Satan offered Jesus political power and Jesus rejected it

  • Politics pulls us away from God?

  • Satan wants more Christians in office

20:22 Did God create the government (or any government)?

• 1 Samuel 8

• Humanity was given authority over animals and nature - not humanity

• Israel had no king and was supposed to be an example, but they fell into wanting kings

  • Violence always comes from wanting to control others

• The whole power structure has to be turned upside down to follow Jesus

• The notion of “Jesus for President” can never make sense with the current system

27:06 Jesus being tempted with political power and rejecting it

• Jesus avoided term Messiah

  • Had violence in its history

• People kept trying to make him king

• Satan directly tempts him

• Jesus is not going to come back and be violent

  • Why would Jesus change his mind?

• Jesus will not “slay out enemies”

  • Our propensity toward violence drives us to this thinking

• The myth of American Cowboy

  • “Might makes right”

  • Our enormous military power

  33:07 Opt-Out and Follow Jesus

• America is not our nation, Christnation is

• We are ambassadors of the Kingdom of Heaven

• But what about paul using his Roman citizenship?

  • We do what we need to survive practically and leverage situations for our mission for God and further the Gospel

• Accepting Jesus as king of your life is the only citizenship you get to choose to participate in

  • What paul talked about was a rival nation to Rome

38:59 “God puts people in political power”

• Reading Romans 13 without reading Romans 12

• Old vs. New Testament

• 3 Temptations of Jesus

• Is Satan only interested in Jesus worshiping him?

• If we know the temptation, why would we partake in it?

• Does Romans 13 work for Nazi Germany?

  • Then it doesn't work for you and America

44:49 God in the Process of Resorting All Things

• Escetoloy

• Times Theology

• Eternal Torment 

48:10 Connect with Peter and Rival Nations

• Rivalnations.org

Facebook Page, Instagram, Twitter, RSS

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59. Jesus, Memes, War, and Canadian Truckers with Nathan Chavoya, Tony & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

For episode 59 of the podcast, Craig is joined by (sometimes) co-host Abby Cleckner for a conversation with fellow podcasters, Nathan Chavoya and his co-host Tony, to talk about the power of memes, their podcast Reality Czars, and, of course, Jesus.

We covered a wide variety of topics in this episode, from why we use memes to Amish communities and the pros and cons of Trump supporters. As always, it comes back to the question of: What Would Jesus Do? Whether we’re considering people who don’t want to listen, Canadian truckers, Ukraine and Russia, the Mexican border, war and Christianity, the indoctrination of the church, or conservative Amish communities – in everything, we must follow the example of Jesus.

Nathan is the social media manager for The Bad Roman Project. He makes a lot of the memes you see on our page. You can find Nate and Tony's show and where to connect with them via their link tree (content warning for all of their media: profanity, crude humor, rude comments).

Episode Timestamps:

5:50 Why memes work

• People often seem to get more out of memes than the podcast

• Non-intrusive way to absorb an idea

• Can light a fire… maybe dose a red pill

  • Makes people read all day to learn more

  • Might change their entire perspective on the world

9:01 People who love to smell their own farts

• Some people just want to inform others how wrong they are

• Go on long rants

• You can’t do anything about it when they refuse your offered resources

  • They don’t really want answers

  • “I could tell you, but you're not listening to me anyway.” -Craig

• Saying, “You’re wrong” and writing a novel about why is not going to get you engagement

• Using tired information and arguments won’t convince anyone

• Proving you’re not interested in learning more about what you disagreed with shuts down the conversation

12:45 Canadian truckers

• “I see a bunch of statists running around out there waving their flags, trying to change the government and get the government to give them back their freedoms.” - Craig                                                       

  • We make fun of the patriot libertarians

    • But at least they’re doing something

      • Ancaps are sitting on their butts

      • Agorists are building their own markets and ignoring society

      • “I'm glad that there is some pushback.” - Nate 

      • Maybe they have the wrong approach, but at least theyr’e taking action

• Craig warned them to watch for feds/politicians trying to infiltrate their group

  • The feds are the dumb ones

    • There was a guy at the truck rally waving a Nazi flag

  • They literally all wear the same black boots

  • They try to paint any pushback as racist

    • It’s just normal folks saying, “Keep that crap away from me.”

• Trudeau called them harmful white nationalists

  • As they helped homeless people on the video behind his voice

  • There’s not just white people involved

• What is their goal? How does sitting there help?

  • Trudeau said all truckers must be vaccinated

    • Put a travel ban on unvaccinated

    • Even US truckers coming in must get the shot

    • In the US, like 60% of truckers are not vaccinated

  • They're holding a huge strike

    • Not shipping

    • Clogging up streets

  • People raised over $10 million on GoFundMe

    • It got refunded because the site refused to support the truckers

    • Another site stepped up and raised $3 million in 24 hours

  • Not directly hurting anyone

    • People won’t be able to get what they ordered

      • If there was no effect, what’s the point?

    • They have every right not to do their job

  • Some say it’s not really a grassroots movement

    • Most guys are there to fight the power

    • But it was the deep state’s idea

      • Elon Musk has created self-driving trucks

      • They are going to prevent humans from stopping shipment again by using computers instead

        • “Never again”

  • Wouldn’t it be more effective to just keep doing their jobs unvaccinated?

    • Instead of just sitting there waiting for the government to change its mind

    • People can refuse their shipments if they want

    • But it might have made less of a media splash

    • How could the government really enforce it? There’s too many of them

      • The laws wouldn’t mean anything anymore

  • Actually, a lot of the truckers are vaccinated

    • They’re still protesting with their brothers

    • They don’t believe anyone should be forced into it

    • In most realms of society, it’s the unvaxxed vs vaxxed, but these guys can still work together

    • They haven’t converted to the religion of COVID-19

    • They don’t see those without it as heretics

    • They just watch the news, and the news told them to get it

    • Most people don’t have access to alternative media

    • They’d been locked down for 2 years

    • Believed the vaccine would protect them, that they wouldn’t get COVID (not true), that they wouldn’t spread COVID (not true), and that the symptoms will be less bad (maybe?)

    • Realize they were duped, life didn’t go back to normal, we keep being told if we do just one more thing, it will all be over

    • How long will people continue doing the rain dance that doesn't bring any rain?

    • When will they say, “No! I don't trust you anymore.”

    • People are afraid to eat crow

    • They don't want to admit they were wrong, so they just continue to do what they're told and pretend to agree

24:47 The reality of COVID

• Some sort of virus definitely exists 

• It might not have actually been any worse than other years

  • The people in charge got to tell us what's causing deaths

    • They know how to manipulate statistics

  • Three years ago, if your grandma had cancer and diabetes, then got the flu and died, the flu would not be blamed

    • Almost everyone had 3 to 4 comorbidities

  • The average age of people who died from COVID was 81

    • The average age of people who die in America regularly is 79

• Theories on why it didn’t hurt most people

  • If they really made this in a lab, they didn't do a very good job

    • It didn't hurt very many people

    • It's all just a circus made to distract us

    • Or maybe they just weren't able to test it on average humans

      • Maybe they tested it on sickly populations and it wiped out a good chunk of those people

        • Prisoners low on vitamin D and will to live would get much sicker and be more likely to die

    • “They thought it was going to be really bad and were disappointed. So they had to start making up numbers.” - Abby

  • Psy-op 

    • Maybe it wasn’t about wiping out the population

    • Maybe it was about seeing what they could make us do

      • Even places who did not comply at first masked up for Omicron for some reason

        • Omicron meme example

29:18 Mandates

• Some counties in Tennessee tried to hold on to mask mandates

  • The state made them illegal at the county level

    • But schools were still free to choose

    • Craig’s friend’s kids were required to get vaccinated to go to school

      • Abby told her kids they wouldn’t be allowed to go if that happened

      • Nate and Craig would want to get violent if the school required that

        • Craig wouldn’t even stand for masks

    • People living in places where it’s not required are choosing to wear 2 masks and get jabbed

      • They’re scared

    • In Oregon, they forced all school staff to get the vaccine

      • A lot of teachers chose instead to get fired

      • Parents are all mad, but they do nothing

32:26 Schooling

• If we all got together and hired the fired teachers, we could have our own school

  • No more government indoctrination camp

  • No more teaching our kids weird things we don’t want them to learn

  • The unvaxxed teachers are more likely to align with our values

• Let’s come together and homeschool instead of getting our kids vaccinated so that they can be indoctrinated

33:52 Ukraine and Russia

• You have to look back at their history to understand

• Is the threat of war just posturing by Biden?

  • His guys supposedly killed an ISIS leader in Syria the other day

    • Some people say he wasn’t even a leader

    • So many innocent people died in that air strike

  • Is this also just something they’re saying to look good?

  • Biden’s popularity has been plummeting

    • Whenever that happens, they start talking about war

• It doesn’t look like Russia is wanting war

• History

  • Raegan and Gorbachev made an agreement that NATO would never extend east beyond Western Germany and the USSR would not come west of it

  • NATO has taken over many former USSR countries

  • Russia wants at least a buffer between themselves and NATO

    • That was Ukraine

    • They said if NATO came into Ukraine, they’d fight

• Who knows what will happen

  • We’re acting like the biggest bully

    • But are we?

    • We just turned tail and left Afghanistan

• What people are saying

  • Someone said, “Man, those democrats sure do like war”

    • Dude, the republicans continued several wars with Trump in office

    • You just gotta agree with them

      • Because that is true

      • Ask them questions: 

        • Why don’t they like war?

        • Find out their principles

      • Then ask them to be consistent when a republican comes to power

39:26 Border crossers

• Conversation Craig had

  • “Trump gave us a secure border”

  • “By locking kids in cages”

  • “But at least it was secure”

  • “I dunno; doesn’t seem Christlike”

  • *silence*

• Use, “IDK… WWJD?”

• Someone said, “Most of the kids in cages aren’t even related to any adults they came with. I’d rather my kid sit in a cage than be sex trafficked.”

  • Obama made some sort of rule that if you brought a kid with you, the US government would let you through no questions asked

    • So, lots of sex and drug traffickers used that to their advantage

  • They couldn't keep the kids and adults together because they were afraid of the kids being abused, especially since most of them were not with their parents

  • "I don't think the cages are the best solution still. Call me crazy." - Abby

• We just need to get rid of drug laws and borders, and most of these problems would be solved

• Why do people care if anyone comes over the border anyway?

  • What's so wrong about them looking for a better life?

  • People here don't want to work, so why can't they let someone else come do it?

  • So many people who oppose the border don't realize the people getting ahead in their precious capitalist system are bringing people over the border for cheap labor

    • They don't get held accountable, but Mom and Pop places do

  • Work visas

    • Families have to live off one income if one spouse is deported

  • “They’re so sweet; I don’t understand why we treat them like garbage.” - Craig

• Shoot ‘em

  • People want to have snipers on top of the wall picking crossers off

    • Because maybe then they’d think twice about coming over

  • There used to be a group who shot border crossers

  • They have similar attitudes towards Muslims

    • If they saw one with a backpack on, they’d shoot

      • How does one know a man is Muslim?

        • You’d have to do a little interview with him first

45:00 Evangelicals love war and destruction

• They’re the top demographic to support war, capital punishment, torture…

• How is that possible??

  • Maybe it started with one issue, like abortion, and once the Republican Party could control what they thought about that, they could control what they thought about everything else too

  • Conservative culture is more important to them than Jesus or liberty

    • They stick a Jesus fish on their car to prove their love

• Evangelicals will get mad at you when you say you don't support war 

  • They actually seem to equate being a Christian with supporting war

    • They don't see the conflict there

  • “I was that guy…It never dawned on me that murdering people was not what Christ wants us to do.” - Craig

  • There has to be some fascinating psychology behind that

    • Someone made a diabolical plan to cause it

• It’s taught in churches

  • Perhaps most strongly in Southern Baptist congregations

• But people can love their country without loving murder and theft

• The church was infiltrated

  • The first churches in early America were very anti-state

  • Maybe the desire for power was too strong and they combined with the state

  • Maybe they learned loyalty to the state from the Church of England

    • Or they were used to controlling the state through the church

  • The separatists coming from England had been persecuted by the Anglican Church and had no interest in being like them

51:51 Amish

• Were getting murdered by other denominations

• Fled to America

• Stuck their heads in the ground and became entirely separate

• Did not operate like England at all

• Some anabaptists are trying to convince the more conservative Amish groups to engage with the fringes of society

  • They’re so secluded they won’t even help people outside the church

• Their strict rules are a new form of oppression

• Treat their women like second class citizens

  • Jesus never talked about that

  • Maybe it’s an indoctrination

  • A lot of Muslim women say they like and choose their head coverings

• Some Amish communities kick their kids out into the world at 16-18 to let them decide for themselves

  • Some don’t and people flee

    • They send members after them like a Mormon cult

55:54 Reality Czars podcast

• Unscripted

  • Which is good because popular guests who usually repeat the same thing wind up sharing something new or funny

• Nate and Tony teamed up

  • Met at Squatchfest

  • Tony helped Nate kill some pigs for an anarchist animal butchering class

    • (he kind of expected to get killed because Nate’s standing their with a gun and HUGE pigs in the pen, and they were only acquaintances)

  • They had interesting conversations and decided to start a show

• Nate’s side hustle

  • Wife Abbey writes these show notes (hi)

  • He makes the memes

  • Abbey also does proofreading

• Nate’s baby

  • Is actually 8.5 months old now

  • Happily wears bow ties to church

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44. Love without Politics with Bruxy Cavey

Bruxy Cavey is a Canadian pastor working with The Meeting House, a church with roots in the Anabaptist movement. He has written a book about having a relationship with Jesus called The End of Religion. You can find him on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, and bruxy.com. 

Satan has always been after Christians and works to seduce them with power, he convinces people they can make their country more Christian through politics. He pushes us to seek religion rather than relationship. Bruxy is here today to teach about a different way to change the world-- the way the Anabaptists follow; the way of love and non-violence; the way of Jesus. Anabaptists believe politics has nothing to do with Jesus. We should ignore what the government is doing and focus on our Kingdom mission, which is to love people and introduce them to Love Himself. You can find more about the anabaptists’ background and beliefs here: Radical Reformation Teaching. 

Timestamps: 

6:00 Political Identity

• Is in Jesus’ Kingdom

• “This is a threatening concept, to say ‘Jesus is inviting us into a whole new way of finding our ethnic and national and political identities in this world: the Good News of the Kingdom.’ That means we've got a king-- that's Jesus. And it also means that we are citizens of a different way of being in this world.” -Bruxy

6:57 Ambassadors 

• Less of an American citizen, and more a citizen of the Jesus Nation 

• “I’m not here to be a good Canadian; I’m here to be an ambassador to Canada” -Bruxy

8:00 A Threat to the Establishment

• “If Christians aren't a threat to the state, then we're probably not living like we're supposed to be.” -Craig

• Jesus threatened:

  • The religious leaders by giving grace and taking away people’s need for sacrifice

  • The political leaders by claiming to be King

    • They mocked him with royal clothes

      • But it was all true

      • “He is being crowned king of the alternative kingdom that doesn't overcome the world through might and power. It overcomes the world through suffering.” 

      • The cross was His coronation ceremony

11:49 Christian Nation

• America has many Christian ideals at its root

  • Therefore people think it is a Christian nation

  • “The whole idea is oxymoronic. I mean, there's no such thing as a Christian nation. The people are Christians or not Christians, but nations are not Christians unless it's the Jesus nation, the alternative Kingdom.” -Bruxy

• “Jesus doesn't teach his followers how to use their power to govern well.” -Craig

  • Our goal is not to elect a Christian politician

    • It is to love others better

    • “coercive power may have its place in a secular state, but not in the kingdom of Christ.” -Bruxy

  • People who want to be seen as good Christian politicians must look to Moses/the Old Testament for Biblical support of their actions

    • Jesus does not offer advice on how to govern

    • We don’t follow Moses; we follow Jesus

16:27 Contradictory Bible?

• The Old Testament seems to say one thing, but the New Testament says the opposite

• Jesus cut a new covenant; things changed

  • “That's why it's a bit of a misuse of the Bible to say, Well, I found this in the Bible… So I guess it's for today.”  -Bruxy

  • The Bible is a story of going from an old religious way to the way of freedom and love

  • “And of course, if we're not Jewish, it never was our covenant in the first place. We enter the story of God's people through Jesus.” -Bruxy

18:50 God is Love

• “If you want to get to know what God is like, just stare at Jesus and you get to know.” -Bruxy

• The universe was birthed because of Love

  • To be in sync with Love is to be in sync with the reason for the universe

•  It’s very simple; follow Jesus. Love.

  • When we make it more complicated, we make it complicated for people to find Him

23:17 The Problem of Power

• Basically, everything that distracts us from love can be boiled down to one thing: power

• We think we're going to solve The World's problems in our own power rather than just being humble and accepting God's gift

• The devil doesn't fret if we believe in God; he offers religion to distract us with power

• That's why every generation has a movement of people who go back to simplicity

25:50 Anabaptists

• Amish, Mennonite, and Anabaptists come from the same root

• “Repent” means to rethink and renew

  • It's a lifelong commitment to be willing to repent anytime you find something isn't right

  • Anabaptist is the renewal movement

  • “You gotta be willing to rethink some of the stuff you’ve assumed is Christian.” -Bruxy

•  The Catholics needed to repent, so some of them started the Protestant church

  •  But their idea was that Christians needed to follow the Bible

    •  The Bible can be used to justify just about anything

    •  They continued to fight wars and be tied to governments

    • Many wars were against the Catholics

    • The Anabaptist movement was born during this time

    • They focused on Jesus and were pacifists

    • They were persecuted by both the Protestants and Catholics for having different views

    • Then, some of them ran to America and hunkered down to try to be invisible

    • They chose not to interact with society

    • Amish & Mennonite

34:08 No Violence

• “It’s ok to die for a cause, but it’s not ok to kill for a cause.”

• Change from coercion, fighting, and laws to Holy Spirit’s guidance and fruit of the Spirit

• People will think you’re nuts for not defending yourself

• Passivists aren’t necessarily hippies in the forest waving flags

• “Peace should not just be the goal that you’re trying to achieve by any means necessary… Peace is the way to achieve the goal.” -Bruxy

  • Practice for the goal as you work toward its achievement

• Peaceful response to violence

  • If they hit you, calmly provide them an opportunity to hit you again

  • If they make you carry something for a mile, choose to carry it for two

    • “That first mile was slavery. The second mile is freedom.” -Bruxy

    • It shows them love

    • It might cause them to realize how cruel they are being to a fellow human

    • Defy their expectations

• “We tend to forget the effect you can have on a person's life by not killing them.” -Craig

• “The only way we can change hearts is through love. Not through the love of power.” -Bruxy 

40:55 Are Anabaptists Anti-State?

• Both Catholics and Protestants were fused with their governments

  • Whenever they found someone guilty of being a heretic, the state would have a trial and kill them for the church

  • This was like the Old Covenant where God was the religious leader of a nation

    • The anabaptists want to follow Jesus in the New Covenant

    • So, they chose to ignore what the state is doing and they separated from it

43. Christianity, Anarchism & The Lord of The Rings with Caleb Kesterson

In this episode, Craig speaks with Caleb Kesterson about his journey to Christian-Anarchy, what the Anabaptist can teach us about Christianity, and his articles, Tolkien and the Night Watchmen State and Tolkein and Power. 

Caleb is passionate about peace and was raised in Assemblies of God tradition before finding alignment with the anti-war and Jesus-centric approach of the Anabaptist. He now runs a home church, in an effort to foster discipleship and bring the teachings of Christ into the larger society. 

Craig and Caleb finish their conversation by exploring Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, and what Tolkien has to teach us through the novels about a voluntary society. We all know the books are better than the movies, and thankfully Caleb is here to give us that insight for a Christian-anarchist perspective.

You can connect with Caleb on Twitter @CalebMK5 and find his articles on the Bad Roman Blog.

Timestamps & starting points:

1:51 Caleb’s Background

• Bruxy Cavey & Scott Horton

• Works Agriculture

• Runs a home church

• Assemblies of God to Anabaptist

4:16 Anabaptist, the State & the Early Church

• Anti War movement

• Postcards from Babylon Documentary

• Caleb wants to see an Anabaptism that goes out into the world and meets people where they are vs. isolates 

• Keith Giles, Jesus Untangled

11:49 How Caleb found the Bad Roman Project

• Don’t always see anarchy, Christianity, and peace together

13:55 Christian Right vs. Christian Left

• “Punch people in the mouth lovingly” 

• Left is honest about Tyranny, Right more secretive; but both do the same things

• Trump vs. Obama supporters

• January 6th was trying to keep their master in office

21:00 Absurdities of Statism

• Biden bombing Syria and not ending “conflict” in Yemen vs. what he said

• Lysander Spooner - defensive voting

• Fallacy of defensive voting

  • You are still voting for someone to have power over your neighbor

• Fear voting is the worst voting

• Endorsing tyrannical actions overseas and at home

• Antiwar.com

• “Shooting people at the borders” is not a Christian sentiment

 26:35 Craig’s Social Media Strategy for making people think

• Baiting conversation, not to change minds, but for the curious ones in the comments

• Showing concern for QAnon supporters mental health 

28:26 Is Craig in a cult?

• Many ways to read the bible

  • Anabaptists start with what Jesus said/did and work from there

• Jesus, “you’ve seen me you see the father”

• Let’s get back to Jesus

• Jesus came not to cause division

  • With 30,00 denominations there is clearly some division

32:05 Caleb’s First Article:

• Disclaimer: Caleb is not a Tolkien expert

• Minarchism

• Tolkien’s Shire is voluntary

  • Hardly any positions in government

  • There is a sheriff

  • A governor 

  • Hierarchy established through family origin 

• rangers chose to protect the land they are not forced

38:37 Article #2: Tolkien and Power

• Gandolf’s rejection of the ring and the pitfalls of power

• John 6 Jesus rejects being king over people by force

• Matthew 25 Jesus explains his new kingdom

• 1 Corinthians 127