111. God vs MAGA: The Dangers of Mixing Christianity with American Nationalism

About this Episode

What happens when political figures are compared to religious icons? Join us on the Bad Roman Podcast as we explore this provocative question with our special guest, singer-songwriter Josh Nichols. In this episode, we dive into the unsettling comparisons between Donald Trump and Jesus, especially during election season on social media.

Comparing Donald Trump to Jesus is not just misguided—it's deeply problematic. Through his powerful song "God vs MAGA," Josh challenges the troubling idolatry of political figures and sheds light on the toxic rhetoric that equates Trump with Christ. We'll explore how these false comparisons harm our faith and divert our focus from the true essence of Jesus' teachings.

American nationalism has often cloaked itself in the guise of Christianity, but what does this mean for our spiritual integrity? We dissect the disturbing tendency to merge faith with national pride, examining how this threatens to turn patriotism into idolatry. Josh, through his song "God vs MAGA," unpacks the manipulation of religious beliefs by political entities and how such actions lead to a misguided faith in political leaders. Together, we scrutinize the parallels between Trump's portrayal and the biblical figure Barabbas, emphasizing the crucial need to discern truth amidst the political noise.

We highlight the conflict between personal rights and biblical principles of humility and selflessness by unpacking the theological implications and contrasting earthly citizenship with eternal values. Josh’s poignant lyrics, including the line "God doesn't want to make America great again," serve as a stark reminder that our allegiance should be to God's kingdom, not a nation.

Critical thinking and independent thought are crucial in navigating the noise of corporate media and political propaganda. We discuss the liberating power of relinquishing control to faith and how critical thinking fosters confident, independent opinions. From addressing the idolatry of political beliefs to critiquing the hypocrisy within pro-life stances, this episode is a call to elevate our faith above nationalism and strive for a greatness rooted in God's infinite and unconditional love, not a nation-state’s past.

We wrap up with personal reflections and broader societal critiques, highlighting the tension between national identity and spiritual integrity. Join us for this eye-opening dialogue that underscores the ultimate greatness found in God's kingdom and His unconditional love.

Connect with Josh Nichols:

• Tik Tok

• Spotify

• Apple Music

• Personal Instagram 

• Josh's Band - More Than This Instagram

• Tidal

• YouTube

Episode Timestamps:

Timestamps:

(00:00:02) God vs MAGA

• Comparison of Donald Trump to Jesus and its implications

• Insights from Josh Nichols on political manipulation

• Analysis of Trump's portrayal and parallels with Barabbas

• Discussion on Josh's song "God vs MAGA"

(00:09:37) Jesus, Nationalism, and Idolatry

• Examination of the blending of Christianity and American nationalism

• Discussion on the theological implications of national pride

• Insights into the idolatry of associating Jesus with American symbols

• Analysis of the contrast between earthly citizenship and the kingdom of God

(00:22:52) Navigating Critical Thinking in Society

• Importance of critical thinking and relinquishing control to faith

• Impact of corporate media on public opinion

• Advocacy for independent sources over divisive media channels

• How critical thinking fosters confidence in beliefs without alienating others

(00:32:38) America and Christianity

• The intersection of faith and patriotism and potential conflicts

• Discussion on political beliefs as modern idols

• Reference to the song "Clear the Stage" and the dangers of elevating anything above God

• Addressing hyperpolitical theology and the importance of understanding

(00:42:49) American Hypocrisy and Eternal Greatness

• Tension between American freedom and spiritual constraints

• Church responses to government mandates during the COVID-19 pandemic

• Bad Roman Episodes on Covid

• Examination of political actions versus genuine Christian values

• Discussion on hypocrisy within pro-life stances and national identity versus spiritual integrity

(00:51:42) Greatness in God and Music

• True greatness in God's kingdom versus making America great again

• Role of music in glorifying God and addressing faith issues

• Josh's passion for creating a community discussing faith, church hurt, and belief

• Emphasis on respectful dialogue within diverse Christian beliefs

(01:02:15) Faith in Modern Society

• Challenges of maintaining faith in a rapidly changing world

• Influence of social media on religious beliefs and practices

• The role of the church in addressing contemporary social issues

• Strategies for fostering a supportive faith community

(01:12:03) Balancing Faith and Personal Beliefs

• Personal stories of reconciling faith with modern values

• The impact of personal experiences on religious views

• Navigating disagreements within the church community

• Encouragement for open-mindedness and growth in faith

(01:22:48) Future of Christianity in America

• Predictions on the evolution of Christianity in a diverse society

• The potential for interfaith dialogue and cooperation

• The role of young people in shaping the future of the church

• Final thoughts on hope and perseverance in faith

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74. Can We Love More Than We Hate with Hodey Johns

About this Episode

This week Craig is joined by Hodey Johns, co-host of the Enemy of My Enemy podcast from the We Are Libertarians Network. They discuss focussing on love that looks like how God loves us, contrasting these with social media discussions that look more like hate. They talk about political statements that assume God hates those on the wrong end of our favorite policies. However, Christians shouldn't even be on the political spectrum. Can the love of Jesus be made visible when we fight online over our political positioning?

The Israelites received laws from the very hand of God, but they missed His heart for humanity to follow their consciences in loving their neighbors. Not even Jewish regulations could justify people in the sight of God because love is the fulfillment of the law. Jesus proved this when he righteously ignored the Levitical laws, and the Pharisees proved that one could follow the rules perfectly and still be unrighteous.

Unfortunately, we haven't learned this; hate may be more natural to Christians than love. We fail to worship God according to His desires when we fail to love those around us. As Christians, rather than looking for the boundaries we should not step on and assume that the rest of our conduct is loving, we need to seek the narrow path and aggressively love everyone, including our enemies. After all, this is how Christ first loved us.

Hodey Johns:

·       Facebook

·       Instagram

·       Twitter

Episode Timestamps:

1:56 – Introduction to Hodey Johns

·       Loves debates

·       Theologian

·       Writes about video games

·       Parents weren't very interested in their own Christian faith

o   Hodey was self-taught in Christianity and the Bible from a young age

·       Became a Mormon for 15 years

·       Lived all over the states

o   Noticed that Christian culture differs from place to place

6:19 – Christians on Social Media

·       Do more Christians need to put themselves out there on social media?

·       People don't change their minds in an instant or one conversation

o   They contemplate new ideas for a while

o   Like planting a new tree, waiting and tasting its fruit

·       We can't let others do the theological thinking for us

o   Not even religious folks

o   Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers

·       No Christian has everything figured out

o   Christianity is a process

o   But we don't need to worry because we know who God is

16:14 – Love one another and love your enemy

·       Christians have a tough time balancing being in the world but not of the world

·       Thankfully, it's not all over once you sin

·       When you sin and recover, you get better

·       Christians wield hate and fear as a conversion method

o   We have all experienced hate

o   As Christians, we know that hate is evil

·       Love is the highest commandment

o   Jesus loved us and died for us

o   Would we give up our lives for those we are fighting with on social media

·       Love is not just the absence of hate

·       We ought to be aggressively loving

o   Christianity is a narrow path

·       Christianity should not be us saying, "God opposes [insert pet peeve here]"

·       There is real hate from both left- and right-wing Christians

·       Christians should not be on a political spectrum

·       Biden's student loan debt write-offs are not forgiveness

·       The left likes to think it has a monopoly on love

·       Jesus only spoke in parables to the public

o   Stories of love and goodness

o   We should be using stories too and asking, "who is the loving neighbour?"

·       Moral choices are required for good deeds to be produced

·       Paying taxes is not a virtue

33:09 – How ethical is the law?

·       Immigrants from Mexico who come to better their lives are human beings too

o   They cross an imaginary line to come here

o   The law of the land is in opposition to God's law

o   They only come to eat and feed their families

o   Christians don't seem to understand this

o   They are still image bearers of God

·       Jewish law was superior to today's laws

o   They still condemned people

o   They still allowed for the killing of Jesus Christ

·       The Bible can be summarised as people trying to justify themselves by the law

o   It was to show the way to being led by the Holy Spirit

o   It was to give the Israelites time to escape the slave mentality of Egypt

·       Where is your faith?

o   Do politicians protect you and your nation?

o   It should be in Jesus Christ

o   Why are Christians scared of immigrants?

o   In Jesus' death and resurrection Christianity grew

·       Christianity's hey-day was when Christians were stateless

·       The Israelites' laws changed from chapter to chapter of Leviticus

o   The law was being revised constantly

§  God was stable; His people were not

o   They couldn't enter the promised land until they realised the law could not save them

·       Even the wandering Israelites went astray when they tried to turn their relationship with God into a law-based system

40:19 – We can't legislate love.

·       The complex legal system that we have cannot be used to promote Christian values

o   The Israelites walked together with God and couldn't make the law work

·       Laws are written on paper, but let's try to figure out what is right

·       The will of God is to love one another

o   Love is the command

o   We worship someone else when we fail to love

·       When Christians think they are God, they become hateful

·       Are you really a Christian if you are not moving towards love?

·       Are we being motivated by the love of Christ?

45:57 – Church is unappealing when we don't have love

·       Church attendance has dropped off since 2013

·       There are reasons why people don't go to church

o   Hate-filled sermons

o   Hate-filled conversations with people after church

·       Jesus hung out with prostitutes and tax-collectors

o   We should also be showing them the love of Christ

·       Jesus' measure of how to get into heaven was to forgive and not judge others

o   That is mentioned more often than other methods usually suggested

·       Homosexuality is not a sin

·       Whosoever is angry with his brother is at risk of being judged

·        Jesus said himself that if you call someone gay, you are in danger of being judged

·       Wanting to punish people crossing a border is wrong

·       Jesus ignored the law and healed on the Sabbath

o   This is why Hodey trashes the law

o   Jesus never denied breaking the Sabbath

·       The scriptures are stories of people working out morality in a complex world

·       The transformation of your heart is all that matters

·       You can break the law and be right

·       You can follow the Levitical law and be wrong

o   The Pharisees proved it

·       Jesus ignored the laws, so we can ignore immoral laws also

1:05:47 – Smoked meats

·       During covid, Hodey picked up a smoking meats hobby

·       Smoking meat makes Hodey a better person

o   It's a philosophical journey

o   The community is full of nice people

·       Well-cooked brisket is a bad piece of meat turned good through cooking

·       Mesquite trees make the best-smoked meats

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65. Reclaiming Church with Dan Morrison

About this Episode

Craig is joined by the Rev. Dr. Dan Morrison, Assistant Rector of All Saint Anglican Church in Springfield, Missouri. Dan brings his plethora of experience and knowledge of scripture to the show for a conversation on the original role of the Church and how modern Christianity is living up to the model Jesus set forth over 2,000 years ago. 

Why do Christians seek solutions through political systems of power and fail to remember those are the very systems that murdered our savior? How did we get here, and how can we reclaim Churches for Jesus rather than sell out to the state and its illusions for physical and spiritual freedom? Too often we forget it is Jesus who makes us free, but that freedom is not freedom from suffering, but rather a call towards it. It should be difficult to be a citizen of heaven in a fallen world, but that is when we need to turn to God most.

In divinity school Dan became an expert on the book of Revelations, he shares his expertise and vision for the future of Churches with Craig, as well as some perspective on how we have gotten so off course as Christians. Listeners will leave this episode with a renewed desire to pursue Christ over politics, to not fall trap to the illusions of earthly power, but to instead do what Jesus would do, turn from the earthly kingdoms, and show the world what it means to know the love of God.

Episode Timestamps:

00:35 Shoutout to Amber

01:06 Dan’s Background

• Assistant Rector All Saint Anglican Church in Springfield, MI

• Undergrad in classical applied math

• Ph.D. in Divinity studies

• Roll-tide or Razorbacks?

03:30 Dan’s Sermon 

05:36 Why are Christians seeking solutions through political systems?

• Do christians truly trust God as the ruler of all things?

• Christians are called to suffer in following Jesus

  • We live in a fallen world, the systems of the world ar destined to fall…yet we latch onto them instead of God 

• Fear vs. Jesus

  • the two-party system – voting against vs. for something

• Illusions of changing the system from within

• Joining the military

  • Asses what you are doing and why

    • Don’t lose sight of Christ’s way

• World systems have been allowed to infiltrate the churches

  • Result: churches look more like the world than Christ

11:20 Two Responses to September 11, 2001

• Preach the gospel or kill people out of anger

• Profiling others (only God can judge anyone)

• Christians on the right and left

  • Being a “Christian nation” (are we the good guys?)

    • The deadliness of the United States Empire

  • “Hold my beer”

14:06 Who do we worship at Church? 

• Jesus, Troops, Flags, and Afghanistan

• Romans 13

  • But first: Romans 12

• Killing other Christians (or anyone) for the sake of a geopolitical nation

  • Partisan agendas and scripture

    • Conquest in the old testament – Joshua

    • Can’t pick and choose, must then look at the old testament text about care for the foreigner, ect.

    • It’s all or nothing or in consistency

17:50 The Consistency of Jesus – who will you follow?

• We don’t follow Paul or Joshua, we follow Jesus and his teachings

  • “When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the father”

  • Jesus is who set us free – take that seriously, opt. Out

    • Galatians 5:1 – USA is not who set us free

19:07 The World is Watching – What are you going to do as a Christian?

• The state is going to do what the state is going to do

• We forget who we belong to as Christians

  • Or we just ignore it

• “America” is not even the United States of America (i.e. remember Canada, South America, Central America, and Mexico?)

  • Jerusalem and USA 

    • False belief: God created the USA on purpose to protect Israel

• Paul’s statement of the Israel of God reconciled with Romans 13

  • Romans 13 in light of Romans 12

• Jesus never gives us the power to call done fire from heaven upon anyone

  • If you think that’s what being Christian is about then you don’t get Jesus

• Loving your neighbor and enemy leaves you with no one left to hate

22:33 Romans 13 out of context — the Jump to the White Horse of Revelations 

• Revelation 1

  • God as Jesus Christ ruler of Kings on Earth

• Revelation 4

• Revelation 17

  • Will God rain fire?

  • “John’s 3rd Vision”

    • People with Jesus do nothing but ride in behind him, no one is slayed

  • Destruction of Babylon – Romans 17 Verse 16

    • World Sytems implode on themselves, their failure is baked into their creation before Jesus ever shows up

• We are going to kill people in the name of Jesus does not add up

  • God never tells us to do that

• Nations get stricken down because they have waged war against Christ himself

• Churches – fix yourselves!

• The systems are powered by satan

  • Will we appeal to the empire to feel safe or dare to follow Jesus

• Jezebel – welcome in the imperialism in the church

  • The false hope of political power

• Churches are in bed with the empire

31:38 Difficulty of Finding a Church that has Jesus as the Focus

• Home church?

• Pushback from Dan’s sermon on revelation

35:47 January 6, 2021

• Christians trying to save their earthly king

• Civil Religion

  • People have become enchanted as if by a spell

• Did God stop being ruler? 

• Ruling by proxy, shifting blame to please God

  • Outsourcing sin

• Paul could not have voted Cesar into power

  • Pray for those in authority over us

 43:09 Romans 13 – Paul uses Submit vs. Obey

• David Bentley Hart New Testament Tranaslation original greek

  • Peter: “It is necessary we obey God rather than man”

• Rosa Parks

• Abortion debate and submit or obey

  • Following the constitution

  • Live in a world where abortion is not seen as a choice, not one the government has a say so in

  • Don’t celebrate anything the government does

• With the reversal of Roe v. Wade — what is there left to run on?

• Should Christians be voting?

  • Why are you going to the world systems that caused the death of your savior?

  • Being in bed with the beast vs. suffering under the foot of the beast

51:26 Choose this day (and every day) who you will serve

• Frustration with Christians and a relentless need to follow Jesus 

• The term we translate as Church is also a political term

  • Eclessica – a local gathering of the citizens of God that have come together for a purpose

54:29 Daniel I. Morrison’s Plugs

• Facebook 

• Twitter & Instagram

• Allsaintsspringfeild.org

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64. Is Jesus King? with Ian Minielley

About this Episode

Ian Minielly has written several articles for the Bad Roman and most recently is the author of the book The Genetic God. He is passionate about the church worshiping Jesus without the state and encouraging people to seek first His Kingdom. 

Who is our king? Many people would respond that we don’t have one in America. But Christians do. We have a global King. Our president is the furthest person on Earth from meeting God’s standards for a ruler. We do not meet those standards. No one does but Jesus. He is our King.

Episode Timestamps:

00:20 

• Are you fit to rule over your neighbor or are they fit to rule over you?

• “People wanting to clamor for a new king because they want their team to win, but who exactly is fit to be king?” - Craig

1:52 Inspiration for the article

• Watching football

  • Political ads

• Read Deuteronomy 17

  • Guidelines for a king

  • God’s warns them

    • “Kings are bad, but I know you’ll want one, so here’s how to best do that”

  • When they did get a king, they went against most of the guidelines

    • All presidents swear an oath to the Constitution

      • All presidents break that oath

        • Why are they making new laws if they can’t even keep the ones

          • Legislators should be hired to abolish laws, not add more

• Figured out politicians never do what they promise

  • At age 31

  • Could not continue to be made the fool who believed it would fix things if a certain person was in office

    • When the house, senate, and presidency have all been 1 side, things have still not improved

      • In fact, they’ve had power to do worse things

    • People think they gotta get the right justice into the supreme court

  • People vote out of fear

  • Craig was 43 when he realized politicians don’t help anything

• Double-minded thinking

  • 1 John 2

    • “Do not love anything of the world.”

    • Pastor said that,

      • Ian looked at his wife, 

        • Who tried to avoid eye contact

        • He was obviously about to point out the contradiction

          • In 2 weeks, they were going to have a big 4th of July USA celebration

          • Which is something of the world

13:50 

• II Timothy 3:16

  • All Scripture is useful

    • Random passage in Deuteronomy completely changed Ian’s view on politics

    • Only read it as part of a yearly reading plan

      • But it made him realize that our politicians are not legitimate kings

        • Only Jesus is

14:44 Why do Christians vote?

• They’re indoctrinated to believe that’s their responsibility

• Of course, they’re choosing between the most depraved people in the country

  • Twist Romans 13

• The pulpit has failed

  • Those in pews think they’re supposed to focus on Earthly matters

• The empire is falling

• “Everything the state touches, they screw up. Why in the hell are you going out there and putting more people in power? Why don't you just walk away?” - Craig

  • Right before COVID, many people were starting to realize this

    • So why are people still trusting the state at this point??

  • It’s like we’re in Babylonian captivity

    • Daniel and his friends refused to eat the king’s food

      • Everyone else ate it and fell ill

      • Those 4 men were healthy and strong

    • Most people are choosing to live like Babylonians

      • Doing what’s expected to survive

    • Daniel chose to worship God even when the law said only the king

      • Thrown in the lions’ den, but not consumed

    • Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to bow to the idol

      • Thrown in the furnace, but did not burn

    • We refuse to eat the king’s food

      • We’re spread throughout the country as tiny beacons of light

  • When in Rome…

    • When in the United States, 

      • Act like an American

    • No. We are citizens of the Kingdom

    • “We have subjugated our real identity in Jesus, underneath the identity of a flag in whatever the national government over us is. And so we are a fractured people.” - Ian

  • “Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    • We’re not seen as beacons of light

    • People think we’re nuts

    • We’re going against the grain

    • “I got told the other day that at work. ‘You don't have a reason to complain cuz you don't even vote.’ That's the dumbest thing ever. I said, ‘You don't have a reason to complain. You asked for all of this, you asked for every bit of tyranny that you're getting.’” - Craig

21:55 Ways Christians have been manipulated to vote

• Against godless communism

• Against abortion

• 9/11

  • Craig even tried to join the National Guard

    • But was 4 whole pounds overweight

      • His momma is grateful for those 4 pounds

  • His friend got in

    • As soon as he arrived, they were in a fire fight

  • They wanted to go preach the Gospel

24:32 National (religious?) holidays

• Church service on American holidays

  • Service members stand and applauded for

  • Pledge to the flag

• The state has 100% infiltrated the church

  • Jesus Untangled by Keith Giles

• Ian got saved while in the army

  • The church on base was all about military

  • It’s a miracle he got saved there

    • The mindset was all about going overseas and killing humans

  • He just started reading the Bible

    • Realized everything he believed was wrong

    • He still has worldly thought patterns to break

• Christians vote because

  • They were raised on state worship

  • They’re taught to salute flags and stop when they hear the national anthem

  • That’s what good conservatives/Christians do 

    • If you don’t, you cannot be a good Christian

  • “They don't see how it's counter to our faith to worship the state and ask the state to do all these things.” - Ian

    • Gotta have a big, powerful state

    • Sell weapons to Ukrainians and Saudis so they can kill

      • Because it keeps Americans employed

      • “They got money to go to war, but they can’t feed the poor.” - Tupac

      • Why do people support that??

        • The Russians are image-bearers of God!

      • “The only good those planes might be able to do is if you took all those gun racks and bomb racks off and you put little parachute racks on there and they just dropped Bibles all over the world.” - Ian

      • “The next eight countries in the world don't spend as much on the military as the United States does, yet I'm supposed to think that China's a threat to me.” - Ian 

        • The US government is my enemy

          • China doesn’t steal my money

          • They’re not here right now

          • Muhammad Ali refused the draft, saying “I ain’t got no quarrel with those Vietcong.”

    • In Deut 7, God says you don’t want a king who’s after chariots and war

      • Yet that seems to be what everyone chases after

        • Ron Paul said he would cut the military and got cut from the race

    • He also warned that a king would take 10% of the people’s earnings

      • We sure give our “king” a lot more than that

      • Maybe we were better off under the monarchy

        • The Tea Party was about taxes less than 3%

    • People standing up to the war machine

      • Muhammad Ali

        • Refused the Vietnam draft

      • Laurence M. Vance

        • Written books on the topic

      • Kaepernick

        • Football player took a knee to protest police brutality

  • Now, players who don’t want to salute just stay in the locker room

    • They all used to do that

    • Until the government started buying ads to support the NFL

    • Now, players are expected to display patriotism on the field

    • If you have any influence and you stand against the machine, the government will work to destroy you

    • Some people stopped watching football because of players kneeling during the anthem

    • Just watch the game for the game and ignore the circus around it

      • They want you to focus on that

        • So you shouldn’t

    • There’s tons of army recruitment commercials

38:31 Is there anyone who is fit to be king?

• Israel wanted a king because everyone else had one

  • Made them feel like they had earthly power

• “I think I'm a pretty morally upstanding guy, but make me president, and I'm gonna make people do things they don't want to do.” - Ian

  • “I want to use the power of the state to force them to act how I think a morally upright person should, which is completely not morally upright.” - Ian

• If you want a president who makes war, raises taxes, spends lots of money, purposely keeps the population enslaved in poverty, 

  • That person exists

  • If you don’t want that,

    • Don’t vote

    • Because that’s what you’re going to get no matter what

• Libertarians believe if they had the power, these problems would go away

  • “If you wanted to spread a message of Liberty, then you'd be talking about Jesus.” - Craig

    • Not about getting some guy elected

  • People try to get Craig to run for office

    • Can’t change the mafia from the inside

      • Can only change their hearts with Jesus

40:56 Tell people about Jesus

• They might say He wasn’t real

  • What if He wasn’t?

    • What do we lose by following His teachings?

    • How would the world be different

      • If “Christians” followed Jesus?

    • Christians can’t even envision it

      • Because they’ve been too ingrained with the state

41:40 Seek ye first the Kingdom

• Luke 12

• Jesus is dropping truth bombs

  • A dude interrupts to ask Jesus to tell his brother to share the inheritance

  • Jesus tells the story of the rich fool

    • He had plenty

    • His harvest was huge

    • Rather than share or even sell it, he built bigger barns

      • Needed it all for himself

    • He wanted to eat, drink, and be merry

    • He died. God took his breath

  • Don’t worry about Earthly possessions

    • Seek His Kingdom, and all you need will be provided

    • God knows you need food, clothing, shelter, and security

      • Stop chasing after those 4 things

      • Chase after Him!

      • Everyone’s doing it backwards

      • They live their life and maybe volunteer for VBS once a year

      • “From morning till sunrise or sunset all day long, you pursue the Kingdom.” - Ian

        • Are you talking to people about Jesus?

      • “That stuff is so interesting because He's already said it's gonna be provided and yet, people still worry about it.” - Craig

      • Only Satan could convince us to chase those 4 things

      • Our society’s structure

        • No one likes work

          • They’re upset they’re not at home with their family

        • Husband and wife are both working

          • Send kids off to the free indoctrination camp

          • To learn to become plantation workers

        • Develop heart problems at 60

          • Don’t get retirement benefits

          • Whole life wasted

      • If people would pursue God instead

        • Probably would have smaller house and truck

        • But not regretting living to stuff the pockets of the government

      • It’s hard though, because new trucks are so shiny and cool

47:27 Did God put the president in power?

• If you believe determinism

• But those rulers are handpicked by evil people because they are the most corrupt

  • God wouldn’t pick the most corrupt

  • He can use the most corrupt

    • But He wouldn’t select such bloodthirsty individuals

• Biden was handpicked well in advance and put on the US throne

• God didn’t pick Trump either!!

• God picked Jesus

  • “God has Him ready to be the leader of every single person's life in the entire world.” -Ian

51:32 Isolation

• The Bad Roman lets people know that they're not the only one sitting in church gritting their teeth on national holidays

• Elijah felt isolated

  • Until God let him know about a remnant he had kept 

• People who've given up and left church can know that not all Christians worship the state 

• “Jesus freed us from thinking the way that we think today. He freed us from that; He broke those shackles. But the government is extremely good at getting people to put those shackles back on.” - Ian

  • All they gotta do is make you scared

    • And then offer security

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63. Universal Salvation with Abby Cleckner, Aree Spivey & Scott Goldman

About this Episode

Three brilliant minds join us on this episode to talk about what made them decide Christian universalism makes the most sense compared to other theologies. They share their personal stories as well as Scriptures to explain why Hell cannot exist, everyone will be together with Jesus in the end, and what that means for our current life here on Earth. These three are Abby Cleckner, Scott Goldman, and Aree Spivey from Failed Kingdoms – the artist of our intro song. Find him on YouTube and Kindle Vella, among other platforms.

God is love. God is just. God is infinitely merciful. God is not willing that any should perish. So, why do most Christians balk at the idea that God doesn’t send people to eternal punishment or obliterate them after death? We’ve been trained in what the correct answers are and never to question what the pastor says. But have you ever even truly thought it through for yourself?

Episode Timestamps:

00:37 Is Universalism Biblical or heretical?

• The main reason for the question

  • Many good Early Church quotes come from universalists

    • Commonly accepted in the church today as a pejorative

      • Even though universalism is rejected

2:50 Abby’s Religious Background

• Grew up typical protestant

  • Went to church on Sundays

    • But it never really meant anything

• Switched to Lutheran and Methodist

  • Moved a lot, so lots of different churches

• Church was a ritual she hated

  • Swore she’d never go as an adult

  • And never make her kids go

• Invited to Evangelical church in high school

  • No one dressed up

  • There were no hymnals

  • They played guitars

  • And it was more about relationship with God than ritual

  • About learning, studying, growing

    • But then in studying, came to stories like God commanding [Saul] to kill every man, woman, and child

      • Shocked that God would command him to kill babies

      • More and more stories like that that didn’t sit right built up

      • Didn’t align with who she knew God to be

      • “Study and ask questions, but not those kinds of questions.” - leaders Abby talked to at church

        • You’re just supposed to accept it and move on

• Listened to podcasts

  • Learned about church history

  • The rich diversity of beliefs

  • Christian universalism

    • What majority of early Christians believed

• Hell

  • “If you take the idea of Hell really seriously, you can never have peace.” - Abby

    • In relationships

      • Felt so guilty

      • Felt a responsibility to save all their souls

        • Hurry, in case they die today

  • “Jesus left paradise to come down and serve the suffering. And so how could He just let people suffer in Hell?” - Abby

  • “...people, I love, if they were in Hell, what would I do to get them out? How much more would God do that for them?” - Abby

7:23 Scott’s Religious Background

• Raised Pentecostcal

• Then Foursquare

• Hell was a big thing 

  • His churches were big on fire and brimstone

  • Got married

    • Then really came to God

    • Had to accept that his wife was headed to Hell

      • When she got saved, it was such a relief

  • Driving around with friends, sharing the love of Jesus

    • One said he wasn’t interested and asked what would happen

      • Well… you could kind of go to Hell

        • “That sounds like a threat”

      • Something in the air wasn’t right

  • Scared for his children’s souls

    • Especially when his oldest became a rebellious teen

    • You hope they get into the Word

      • Become that little worship leader you want them to be

  • Learned about annhilationism

    • Seemed more Scriptural

  • 1 Timothy 4:10

    • “...our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.”

      • This changed everything

  • Started reading Keith Giles 

    • Amazon

    • Latest Bad Roman podcast episode

  • Currently listening to Graces Saves All by David Artman

    • Outlines why everything in the Bible points to universal salvation

  • Would sit in church and worry that those who didn’t go to the altar and repent would die, unsaved, in a car crash on the way home

  • Fear is not a great motivator for Scott;

    • Grace always is

  • And Jesus didn’t go around threatening people

    • He gave them grace

  • Grace doesn’t mean we do what we want

    • It motivates us to do better

  • Fear might motivate some people

    • But it’s not something Jesus ever used

• Inerrancy 

  • Puts more stock in Gospels than Epistles

    • Many believe the entire Bible is God’s Word

    • Jesus is the Word

    • The Gospels are about Jesus

      • Some were written by people who were with him every day

12:42 Ari’s Religious Background

• Grew up in black charismatic churches

  • Preached lots of hellfire

• N-64 trauma

  • He was in middle school

  • His Nintendo 64 his most important possession

  • His game stopped, so he tried blowing on the cartridge

    • Like 40 times

    • Didn’t work

  • Got so desperate he begged God to make it work

    • It still didn’t

  • So he told God, “I hate you”

  • A bit later, pastor preached on blaspheming the Holy Spirit

    • Said saying you hate God is a way to do that

    • So Ari’s sittin there thinking he can never be forgiven

      • Doesn’t matter what he’ll say or do now; his little mistake cost him everything

      • Cried every night begging God to forgive him

• His aunt died young

  • When he was about 6

  • He always wondered if she was in Heaven or Hell

  • She was in her wild 20’s phase

    • Pushed away from church

• In his 20’s, he became agnostic

• Slowly rebuilt his faith from the foundation up

  • Started studying Hell

    • The Fire That Consumes

      • Annhilist

    • Read 1 Cor 15:22

      • Started to wonder and research if everyone will be saved

        • Led to reading about the early church

  • Decided universalism is

    • Most moral

    • Logically consistent

18:38 Craig

• People should read what those from Jesus time - 500 years after understood

  • Polycarp was taught by John, who was taught by Jesus

• Questioned everything since birth

• Started understanding liberty, which led to anarchy

  • What if he was wrong about other things?

    • Even Biblical ideas?

• “If it’s not consistent, I’m done with it.” - Craig

  • How can there be 40,000 denominations?

    • Man did this

      • Maybe they should study the early church to see if they’re really right

        • Or maybe we just need to hold on to our current understandings more loosely

        • Be open to learning and changing

        • If God is infinite, maybe it does take that many denominations to show different parts of Him

        • “We're all on a journey trying to understand this the best that we can. And I'm never gonna be a hundred percent right.” - Abby

        • We’re gonna keep learning for all eternity

• Jesus was a questioner

  • People would get stumped because they came in to fight, not to understand

22:48ish The Western church is a lot like an empire

• Don’t question 

  • If you do, you’re out

• “Jesus was not killed by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion – which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God’s will – from their own.” ~ Barbara Brown Taylor

• When the church came to power under Constantine

  • We served Caesar

  • Dictatorship

• The Western church is more like imperialism than Jesus

  • We’ve settled for Caesar too

  • Psychological similarities

    • With those who buck this idea of universalism

    • Addiction to power

    • COVID vaccine

      • “Do this, or else”

        • You can’t go shopping

        • You can’t go to Heaven

      • Question, and you’re just a conspiracy theorist

      • You’re not smart enough

        • Trust the experts

        • Belittling

    • Augustine

      • Someone asked him what God was doing before creation

        • “Creating Hell for people like you who ask stupid questions”

        • Smart question; had to be belittled to coerce everyone to stick with Augustine as the authority

    • Pastors Say 

      • “That’s just how it is”

      • “That’s what the Bible says, so it’s ok”

26:28 If Jesus said He’s going to save all people, why question whether He means everyone?

• Everyone asks, “What about Hitler?”

  • Just reaffirms idea that some people are more deserving of Heaven than others

    • But their theology says everyone is equally deserving of Hell

    • Everyone is also equally saveable

• If God intends to save everyone, He will

  • He has the power

  • He has the intention

• Romans 3:23

  • People use this verse passionately and frequently

    • But ignore “because of Adam, all die; but all are made alive in Christ.”

  • Proves where your focus is

    • The power of sin

    • Everyone is in sin vs all are alive

    • Lack of faith that God can deliver us all from it

• “People believe all sins can be forgiven except a misunderstanding.” - Abby

  • You can rape and murder

    • As long as you say sorry to Jesus

  • But you can’t be born Muslim or Hindu

    • And follow your religion for your whole life

• God is going to restore creation to its original intent

  • Except this little pocket called Hell

  • It doesn’t make sense for sin to be eternal

  • It doesn’t make sense to restore creation to perfection

    • But have most people – His children – be out of reach

    • “Why would he restore the entire universe except not allow people who didn't have the correct understanding while they were on earth to come into a right relationship with him?” - Abby

  • If God is infinitely merciful, why would He not save everyone?

  • We each have infinite chances

    • With sufficient knowledge of God, of course everyone will turn

33:53 Death is not finite

“Who says God can't still work on your heart after you've left this earth?” - Abby

• Jesus conquered death

  • Yet most people still believe death is final

    • That there’s no coming back from there; it’s your last chance

    • And once you cross that threshold, you’re out of God’s reach

34:41 Free will

• People hold to 

  • Love doesn’t force you to do anything

    • That’s why there has to be a Hell

      • Because we need freedom to choose one or the other

• But God isn’t forcing people to accept Him after death

  • He is simply providing more information

  • Removing the bondage of sin

  • And taking off layers of blinders

  • If it takes someone 3,000 years to choose Him, that’s their choice

    • Though, we’ll be living outside time

  • But everyone will accept Him in the end

36:18 More on death

• Death is a part of life

• It doesn’t last forever

• People attempting suicide (successful and not)

  • Seen Christ in each of them

  • Lost for a time, but not forever

• Death, where is your victory?

• “I'm not gonna feel the pain of this forever. I'm gonna be reunited with the people that I love, regardless of if they had it all figured out here or not.” - Scott ?

37:31 Scriptures for the skeptics

• Eternal damnation doesn’t make any sense, when you read Jesus’ words

• Burning Up song

  • Everyone will be salted with fire

  • Mark 9:49

  • Salt/Gehenna context

• If non-believers get time to come to Jesus after they die, do Christians get time to learn more and improve too?

  • Cuz we’ve all got stuff to work on

  • What happens when Christians die?

    • What if they screwed up right before they died?

• Where do souls go after death before the new Earth?

  • Perhaps we should leave it a mystery

  • Some people have died and been revived

    • Listen to them

  • But the Bible doesn’t explain the process

    • Refining fire

    • Absent from the body; present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8)

      • But I’m present with Him now 

        • He is omnipresent

    • Matter is eternal

      • It’s just been reshaped over and over again

      • Energy never dies

      • Changes form

      • It would make sense that a similar pattern is happening beyond this earth

    • “Jesus loves us regardless. Don't tell a Christian that because it's gonna upset him.” - unknown

      • There’s no hellfire in that message

• Show me where Jesus says if you make a misstep, you’re gonna burn in Hell for eternity

  • He didn’t try to scare people into loving Him

• Hebrews 1:3

  • If Christ is a reflection of the Father

    • What about Old Testament slaughterings?

  • Stop focusing on words from the Bible

    • Putting the Bible over Christ is idolatry

  • “I don't need to read the Bible. I need to read who Christ is.” - Scott

  • Words are all we have to describe God

    • If we succeed, He is too small

    • He sent His son to show us

• Jesus

  • Not politician

  • Not a renowned carpenter or mason

  • He was a nobody

    • Calling Him the Son of God was an insult to Caesar

      • That was Caesar’s title

    • It was given to a Jewish rabbi who was not popular among His own people

      • He was seen as a heretic

      • They wanted to throw Him off a cliff

        • Luke 4:23-30

        • He spoke against their nationalism idol

      • The Kingdom of Heaven is for all people

        • Not just Israel

      • When you’re oppressed, you want your oppressor to be annihilated

      • But God loves Rome

      • Just as much as Israel

        • Fightin words

      • What if we said God loves the Taliban and wants the war to end?

      • The Jews believed that they were the chosen people, and the Messiah was coming just for them

        • Jesus said everyone was equal in the Kingdom

        • The Message is for the entire world

48:40 Christianity’s power

• Not a minority

• Not oppressed

• Still want to be tribalistic and put others out

  • Want our enemies to suffer in Hell

• The people with the true problem are often supposedly believers

  • Sheep and goats

49:45 Post-death purification

• We want to think, “This life is hard. As soon as I die, I’ll go to Heaven and be happy.”

• But we must be salted with fire

  • Scary thought

  • But God is good and loving

    • It will be beneficial

    • It’s all for our restoration and healing

  • It’s a mystery

    • But we know who God is

    • We don’t have to be scared of it

      • Even if it’s hard

  • He is Love

51:46 Quoting Scripture

• “I really do believe that Paul believed that there would be some who would be eternally annihilated, but I also believe that Paul obviously believed that ultimately, everybody would be saved.” - Ari

• The problem is, you show someone one verse

  • They show you another that proves the opposite point

  • The Bible is inconsistent

• Paul said meat sacrificed to idols was ok

  • John said no

• John said you need Jesus and the Law

  • Paul said no Law

• The Bible gives inconsistent eschatology

  • It points to different authors’ beliefs

    • Not necessarily what Jesus said

• Paul vacillated between some being annihilated and all being saved

  • How can you argue when both views are in the Bible?

• There’s obviously human error

  • So we just have to take it and decide what’s most moral and logical

• People will say Scripture cannot really mean one thing because it says the opposite somewhere else

  • Cannot try to reconcile them

  • Just accept that it’s different viewpoints

  • Focus on the main points

• If you find something immoral or inconsistent, reject it

  • God commanding slaughter in the Old Testament

    • Not moral

    • Jesus didn’t do that

• Paul believed like a good Jew that some would be annihilated

  • But then he wrestled with the truth

    • God is gonna save all people

    • Had a revelation

  • A lot of Jews struggled to accept Jesus because they didn’t expect the Messiah to die and resurrect like Christ did

    • Why is it hard to accept that Paul may have changed what he understood to be true?

• Other contradiction

  • Jacob I loved; Esau I hated

  • Vs God shows no partiality

• In Romans, Paul is arguing one side of a case

  • And then the other side

  • He’s of split mind trying to make peace

1:00:22 Repent

• That word is preached to mean turn 180° from your sin

• But it means rethink; change

• Paul started with black and white; good and evil 

  • Christ calls us to think outside that paradigm

• Could say that this is Hell and we are currently being purified

  • And once we get to be with Christ, it’ll be done

  • But Jesus says His Kingdom is here

  • We can see His glory here, in this life

1:01:54 Jesus is a peacemaker

• Parables of lost things

• Lost, found, party

• Sons

  • One squandered his wealth

  • The other stayed home, but never really knew his father

  • The father makes peace with each of them

    • We can’t cast aside our pious brothers with different convictions

    • They can’t hate those of us who have strayed

  • His love never changes for either one

  • The Prodigal God by Tim Keller

• “I need to love these people who are telling me I’m going to Hell.” - Scott

• In Scripture, when Jesus gets mad at Pharisees

  • Maybe He’s full of compassion

  • The word we translate “Fool” or “Hypocrite” could mean “Actor”

    • Human authority isn’t real

      • It’s just actors dressed up in costumes and playing a part

• We are all children of God

  • Creation is longing for us to realize we’re sons and daughters of the Most High

    • Romans 8:19

    • No need to fight

1:04:41 Is the Bible meaningless, then?

• No

• It has deep meaning

• The above explanation of the prodigal son revealed new insights

  • Every time Abby hears that story, she learns something new

• That’s why it has survived empires and centuries

  • It’s not just a how-to guide on getting on God’s good or bad side

  • The stories 

    • Tell us about ourselves as humans

    • Give us something to think about

    • Let us contemplate our relationship with God

• Everyone is searching and discovering

  • Coming to different conclusions

    • Let’s embrace everyone’s journey as equals

• “Loving God with all of your mind is to relentlessly keep questioning and keep trying to figure it out and not be stuck in a spot where you're unwilling to change your mind.” - Craig

• The human capacity to get things wrong is endless

  • People imagine God guiding the authors’ pens as they wrote Scripture

  • Reality is, people were involved

    • People mess up

1:07:54 Biblical cases against universalism

• Conditional immortality

  • Dare We Hope?

    • There are contradictions in Scripture about eschatology

    • Hold these tensions as humbly as we can

      • And not presume that everyone will or won’t be saved

  • Best argument against it

    • That All Shall Be Saved

      • Best argument against Hell

      • If God permits some to be eternally lost, then He is evil

        • Even if He permits them to damn themselves

        • He cannot possibly be purely loving and just

      • Humans do not exist in a vacuum

        • We’re shaped by those around us

        • If one damns itself, others around it might make different choices and end up damned

        • Could lead to the collapse of humanity

          • In the same way, everybody must be saved for anybody to be

  • Libertarian freedom is stupid

  • If God would give us sufficient evidence to see that He is everything we need, everyone would choose Him

    • Annihilationism fails

      • Even though it’s in Scripture

• The Bible is clear on Hell

  • Contradictions

  • More clearly supports universalism

    • Starting with Abraham being a blessing to all nations (Gen 22:18)

• Allegory and truths

  • God is love

    • Read this into other Scriptures

  • Definition of eternal life

    • John 17:3

    • Knowing God

      • Depart from Me; I never knew you

        • You didn’t know My true character

      • Even Paul sometimes did something with the wrong mindset

        • Big trouble for casting out a demon out of annoyance

  • We are loved regardless of our good works

  • Doing good for the sake of doing good

  • Heaven and Hell is often about

    • A reward

    • Avoidance of a punishment

      • Fear-based

      • God did not give us a spirit of fear

    • We should be following God for the benefit of our neighbors as well as ourselves

  • Harmony is loving ourselves and others equally

• What’s the point of Jesus dying on the cross if everyone gets in?

  • The Gospel isn’t our ticket into Heaven

    • It’s that the Kingdom is here

• God is love, but He is also just

  • What is justice?

    • People think of it as prison and death

    • God’s justice is restorative

    • Healing what is lost

      • Bringing us into a right relationship with Him

    • “Justice isn't somebody stealing something and getting their hand cut off; justice is that item being returned.” - Abby

    • When Hitler is restored, he will love those he harmed

      • And they’ll be restored to be able to love him also

  • Restoration doesn’t seem possible based on our experiences

    • But God is moving

• Live your values until people start asking questions

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

58. The Return of Jesus: Deconstructed with Keith Giles & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

Keith Giles was once a pastor, but then he met Jesus. Now, he’s a theologian spreading the Gospel of love through several podcasts, including Heretic Happy Hour, Second Cup with Keith, and Threads, as well as numerous blog posts, and many books. In this episode of the Bad Roman podcast, Criag is once again joined by our beloved contributor, and Keith Giles fan, Abby Cleckner for a deep dive into the question that titles one of his articles, “What if Jesus isn’t Coming Back”?

The Church’s Christianity isn’t very Christ-like. The way Chrsitians behave is often influenced by their beliefs about the end of time. Keith joins us to talk through a blog post he wrote about the second coming of Christ, which led him to later pen the book called Jesus Unexpected. Jesus never intended for us to live in fear or anxiety, isn’t it time we start acting like Christians again, let’s turn the world on it’s head and be a force of love, peace, and joy once more.

Episode Timestamps:

1:55 Deconstruction

• “I'm trying to get rid of some of the toxic teachings that I was receiving while I was in church.” - Craig

• It’s hard to release things you hear every Sunday

• Christians focus on Jesus coming back in our lifetime

  • Head in the clouds

  • Not following Jesus’ instructions; just waiting

  • It’s such a distraction from our mission

• Jesus Unexpected – an expanded version of old blog post

• So many shows and books about when Jesus is coming

  • “We're closer now than we've ever been before”

  • Predictions and countdowns

• Counterproductive

  • Causes people to twiddle thumbs and wait for Him rather than solving problems

6:10 Research revelations

• No one thought like this until 1830

  • The Early Church didn’t sit around waiting for Jesus

  • John Nelson Darby came out with rapture theology

• Now, we have the basic outline of the end times story repeated in media

  • Charming antiChrist

  • A peace treaty with Israel

  • Temple rebuilt

    • Daily sacrifice reinstated

  • Treaty broken

    • Daily sacrifice undone

    • AntiChrist declares themself to be God

      • Puts Christians in concentration camps for refusing the 666 symbol

  • Jesus shows up and kicks ass

  • New Jerusalem comes down

• The Great Disappointment

  • Everyone sold their property and went up to the mountain to wait for Jesus

  • Nothing happened.

  • Seventh-Day Adventists stem from this group

• “We assume that that version of the end times rapture that I just described was something handed to us by the apostles, but it isn't right.” - Keith

• Keith's rebuttal to Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory

9:38 Craig waiting for Jesus

• Working in newspaper printing

  • Would end up reading the paper as he worked to see if there were any signs of end times in the headlines

  • He was a Baptist, and some of his co-workers were Church of Christ

    • They had never heard of the rapture

      • Craig tried to tell them it was in the Bible that people would disappear and leave their clothes in a pile

11:15 The trauma of Left Behind

• Keith

  • Would wake up at 2 am and check if his parents had been raptured without him

    • Some of his grown clients still do this

      • One guy came home to a pot of boiling water and a half-finished coloring page

      • His wife and daughter had run outside to catch the neighbor’s dog

      • But for a couple of minutes, he was convinced he had been left behind

• So much fear

  • It's not healthy for the church

  • They terrified us as kids about eternal conscious torture

  • We lived in terror that our loved ones who didn't accept Jesus were going to Hell or would be left behind to deal with the Antichrist

  • God did not give us a spirit of fear (2 Timothy 1:7)

15:39 We can anticipate Christ’s return

• Just not any minute now

• We must continue loving our neighbor and following Christ’s commands

• When it happens, it happens

• People only predict it to make money

  • When they do and are wrong every time, it does not affect their credibility

    • They sell millions of copies of their books each time they make a new prediction

    • “Christians have this insatiable appetite. Revelation is the most confusing book in the Bible. Anyone that shows up and says, ‘Oh, I figured it out. I cracked the code. I know what it means. Everybody come to my conference, read my book, and go sign up for my video series. I'll explain the entire thing to you and I'll tell you what's going to happen.’ And we eat it up. People are desperate to know the future.” - Keith

  • When Jesus returns, people look forward to being right

18:17 Pharisitical mindset

• The Pharisees missed Jesus because they were looking for a vindicator

• Christians hope for the same: that He’ll destroy everyone who disagrees with them

  • And have a kingdom without the wrong people

• It’s like people think Jesus did it wrong the first time

  • He’s gonna come back and fix it, and we just have to wait

  • When horrible things happen, people are glad He’s coming back to stop it

    • “If you know horrible things are happening in the world, we're here right now to be addressing those issues.” -Abby

21:39 Is it really about the end of the world?

• Romans 8:19

  • Creation is not groaning for the second coming of Jesus, but for the sons of God to be revealed

    • That’s us

• So many prophecies throughout the Bible are thought to be about the end of the world

  • The end of the age is not the end of the world; just the Jewish age

    • The temple and daily sacrifice ended

    • Hyperbole was used, just as it was in Old Testament prophecies

      • Jesus quoted Old Testament prophets because they were familiar to those present

31:10 Coasting

• People are worried

  • They’re waiting for the end of the world

    • The end of all that is bad

33:42 John 14

• Jesus said:

  • I go to prepare a place for you, and I will come back to bring you there (vs 3)

  • The Father is in me and I am in you (vs 20)

    • So we are already where He is; He is already here

      • He cannot return when He is here

      • “If heaven is where Christ is and where God is, then Heaven is… in your body, in your heart, in your spirit, because that's where Christ and the Father dwell right now.” - Keith

      • Christ has prepared a place, and that place is in us

34:37 New Covenant

• Acts 2:16

  • The Spirit of God was poured out on every type of person

• Paul describes us as the incarnation of Christ

• Controversial statement: “There is more of Christ in the world right now than there was 2000 years ago.” - Keith

• Christ died; all died

• Christ was raised to the Father’s right hand; that is where we dwell

• Every time someone chooses Christ, a bit more of Him comes into the world

• Whenever “the coming of Christ” is in the New Testament, it is the Greek word, ‘Perusia’ which means ‘presence’

• Christ in you, the hope of glory

• “What all creation is groaning for is for Christians to wake up and realize that Christ is already in them.” - Keith

• “Christ in us is going, ‘When are you going to wake up and realize who you are?’” -Keith

38:06 Movie metaphor

• Waiting for His return is like buying a ticket to a major blockbuster

  • It’s got dragons, hailstones, Jesus coming out of the sky with a sword tongue…

  • Bought tickets, sat in the theater, watched the trailer… repeatedly

• Rapture puts butts in church seats like a movie trailer puts people in the theater

• Reality is more like Jesus waking you up and handing you a lightsaber

  • We get to participate, not just watch a movie

    • Way more exciting

    • We can look for where He is showing up in our everyday lives

      • “[The Kingdom] is already here, and we can see it.” - Abby

43:07 Jesus Unarmed

• We are to be non-violent because that’s what God is like

  • He wants us to bring the Kingdom by doing things in a way that doesn’t make sense to the world

  • We’re not doing it just to be doormats or get our butts kicked

    • We’re showing the world who God is

  • God tells the Pharisees if Abraham was their father, they’d act like him

  • God lets it rain on the just and the unjust

    • Total contradiction to what Moses said

      • Moses: if you love God, you will have abundance, but if you curse Him, you will have drought

      • Correcting misunderstandings about who God is

      • John says Jesus came to make the Father known to us

        • Why would He need to be made known unless people didn’t know Him?

      • Jesus didn’t affirm everything Moses said

      • People know Jesus wasn’t what the Pharisees expected, but they don’t grasp how radical and different He was

50:17 Flat Bible Theory

• Christians give every verse equal weight

  • Jesus really did change things

    • We must reinterpret Old Testament through Him

  • Verses, where God commands war and those where Jesus, speaks peace cannot have the same weight because they are in direct conflict

    • Otherwise, people come out saying, “Sometimes, violence is good; sometimes, it’s not,” when it never is

• Transfiguration (Matthew 17)

  • Disciples wanted to build equal shelters for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah

    • God took back the Old Testament guys

    • “This is my Son. Listen to Him.”

• Every knee bows

  • Including Moses and the prophets

• Most of us already give some verses more weight than others

  • Ones we don’t understand or seem irrelevant

  • Why not do it purposefully and strategically?

• The Bible was written by men, not God

  • Humans make mistakes

• There’s a lot of historical and cultural context that we ignore

55:27 Our foundation

• Is not the Bible

  • The Bible says it is Jesus

  • He is Truth

  • We are not to elevate the Book above Him

  • Christ will change the world, not the Bible itself

57:31 Civil resistance

• Nonviolent campaigns have been almost twice as successful as violent insurrections

• The options are not only to do nothing or blow someone’s brains out

  • There is also active peacemaking

• “God isn't giving us a mission that's going to fail, that just results in all Christians being wiped out.” - Abby

• Erica Chenoweth video 

• The definition of insanity is doing what’s always been done and expecting new results

  • Jesus is offering something else to do

    • Try loving your enemies for a change

• Pray the Devil Back to Hell

  • Moms in Liberia peacefully overthrew the dictator and ended the war their children were fighting in 

• Fighting over blueberries

  • We gotta stop conflict or we’ll destroy things without remembering why we started fighting

  • We don’t want to hurt each other just because one of us stole his brother’s blueberry

• Nonviolence stops fights instantly

  • It disarms the attacker as soon as they hit you

  • So it doesn’t escalate out of proportion

• “I could use violence to physically stop someone from hurting me, but it doesn't change their heart so they no longer want to hurt. Which is what meeting them with love actually does.” -Abby

• So many people on death row are forgiven by the victim’s family

  • Amish school shooting

    • The shooter’s mom now cares for a child he shot

• There are many happy, lovey stories

  • But let’s be honest

    • You could wind up dead

      • Exhibit A: Jesus Christ

    • That’s why Jesus said, “Take up your cross and follow me” (Mark 8:34)

  • Here’s the thing

    • You’re going to die at some point

      • Do you want to die living like Jesus?

      • What better way to go than loving your enemy?

    • “I'm going to respond in love to everybody and hey, if it works great, I get to do it again tomorrow.” - Keith

1:08:56 Introducing people to Jesus

• People focusing on the wrath of God do not draw near to Him

• Evangelicals are statistically the most in favor of war, torture, and the death penalty

  • There seems to be something destructive making those who claim to follow Jesus more vicious than those who don’t

• It’s hard to teach someone something they think they already know

• Other things get elevated above Jesus and block people from Him

  • The Bible, the government…

• People use the word “Christian” improperly

  • They should try saying “Christ-like” and see if they still think it makes sense

  • When someone is feeling righteous, ask: where is Jesus in that?

  • America is a Christian nation

    • Oh, really? Let’s write down all the Christian things we’ve done, starting from the beginning

• “We talk about what we believe, but no one has done the work to really dig down and see: Is what I believe based on Jesus?” - Keith

  • People have beliefs about immigration, and the Middle East… but where did they come from? What do they have to do with Jesus? 

    • Usually, nothing

• Before Constantine

  • You knew your neighbor was Christian by their love

• Constantine said you can do horrible things as a Christian as long as you believe certain doctrines

  • Put a Bible verse on your weapons; that makes it okay

  • Soldier prayer circles before a battle

    • Asking Jesus to help them kill people

• Deconstruction

  • “The deconstruction movement is the revival that evangelicals are looking for, but they're not recognizing.” - Abby (from a meme she saw)

  • It’s really people saying, “If we follow Christ, it shouldn’t be about hatred, tribalism, and fear; we should be Christ-like.”

  • We just want to get back to early Christianity

    • Before it was all about who you hate

  • Christian musician declaring war on deconstruction

    • Because people are afraid it’s leading Christians away from Christ

      • It’s actually people looking for Christ

    • They won’t take the time to understand what it means

      • It’s just not upholding their beliefs, so they panic

1:18:15 Don’t send hate mail

• WE LOVE THE BIBLE!!

  • We just love Jesus more

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54. Waging Peace: Seeing God Before the Resurrection with Jason Porterfield

About this episode

Author and self-proclaimed ‘aspiring peacemaker,’ Jason Porterfield, returns to the show to walk Bad Roman co-hosts, Craig Harguess and Abby Cleckner, through his new book, Fight Like Jesus: How Jesus Waged Peace Throughout Holy Week.  

Come Spring we tend to look straight to Easter, to the miracle of the resurrection, but just how much do we miss when we forget the why and how of what led up to Christ’s crucifixion? By taking an in-depth look at each day in the final week of Jesus’ life, Jason’s book is a guide and game-changer for any Christian who still thinks Jesus died to protect us from a wrathful God. 

God is love! He is not a hammer or sword-wielding warrior, but a force of mercy, humility, and reckoning. How often do we forget this today? How often do we use the bible to justify violent means to imagined peaceful ends? 

“Jesus used a whip in the temple”

“Jesus told them to take swords”

“Jesus said render unto Caesar”

How many of our enemies must we fight or destroy to create peace? How many verses must we take out of context to justify our sin? Peter was scolded for his violence and we remain under the same command to disarm. 

To build the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, to try to love one another and our enemies in the way Christ set forth is a radical position to take both in Jesus’s time and now. Holy Week is crucial to understanding how God’s love works. It is through those days we see and experience Jesus’s message and example in action. 

This episode is a challenge to you to look at yourself, your actions, and if they reflect what you think you believe. It can be easy to think we are on the right side of the resurrection, that we, of course, are on the side of Jesus, but it is just as easy to fail to see we are the ones plotting against the way of peacemaking, that we are the ones holding the hammer over our savior on the cross. We invite you to listen with an open mind, to humble yourself to the folly we all are susceptible to fall into in the midst of miracles. 

If you want to learn more about Jason’s work and message you can connect with him on his website, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Episode Timestamps:

2:15 Episode #14 Fight Like a Christian with Keith Giles and Jason 

3:20 Motivation for writing Fight Like Jesus: How Jesus Waged Peace Throughout Holy Week  

• Failing as a peacemaker

• How do you Love your enemy and neighbor when your enemy is oppressing your neighbor

• Holy week is when we see Jesus enacting all he has said as an active peacemaker

8:08 Why was Jesus shedding tears?

• Passover

• Pontius Pilate

• Hosana translates to “save us now”

• Palm Branches - politically loaded symbols of rebellion

  • Judas Maccabeus

14:16 Christians waging/supporting war vs. living out teachings of Jesus

• Jesus comes back as lamb not warrior

• Revelations 6

19:30 Monday - Jesus Cleansing the Temple

• Ched Myers

  • Jesus returns with planned, calculated action, not rash “temple fit”

• John’s mention of whip used to justify violence by Christians

  • St. Augustine

  • John Calvin, having Servetus put to death

  • Bernard of Clairvaux

• Did Jesus whip people?

  • No, it was more of shooing animal whip - not an instrument of torture

• Catholic Theologian Raymond Brown

  • Whip material was likely animal bedding materials

• John 2:15 

  • Greek translation reveals ‘tu’ modifies all to be sheep and cattle, i.e. John is clarifying who he is using the whip on

• Jesus was not passive in the face of injustice, he was an active pacifist

  • Jesus’s zeal does not destroy, it opens up more for everyone 

  • After the cleansing those who were excluded were invited in

31:32 Tuesday (part 1) - Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and God what is God’s

• Mark 12

• Jesus uses the word “repay” vs. “pay”

  • He switches the verb of the question, which requires you to answer the question of what belongs to God and what belongs to Cesar? 

• Did Jesus’s supporters hear (misinterpret) something else in “pay back” what is owed?

• Jesus leaves people with more questions than answers - makes you think

36:51 Tuesday (part 2) - The 7 Woes

• Speaking truth to power or using authority/power to bash and crush others?

• Easier to see ourselves on the side or Jesus vs. Pharisees

 38:18 Wednesday - Eye of the Hurricane, Quiet Day with  'Backroom Deals’ 

• Jewish leaders scheme to murder Jesus

  • Caiaphas and The Sanhedrin 

• Judas excepting price to betray Jesus

• Unnamed woman

  • First to anoint Jesus as messiah 

• USA Bombing of Cambodia

  • Khmer Rouge 

• Fictional future to justify a present means

 45:10 Thursday (Part 1) - The New Command

• Love each other as I have loved you

  • New standard of love he set in how to love

• What is true evangelism?

  • Living and being the community of God so others can experience it

  • Make others curious about your life by how much you love God 

• 1 Peter 2 

• Faciniation precedes explanation

51:30 Thursday (Part 2) - The Two Swords (Gun Culture)

• Jesus healed the roman soldier harmed by Peter

• Not “time is not right” but “time is never right” attitude to violence

• Two swords allow them to appear as a violence mob, but then reject that violence as an example

• Disciples fled when Jesus revoked Peter’s violence  

  • They were ready to fight for a new king

59:10 Friday - Understating the Crucifiction 

• Did Jesus die to save us from God?

• Fear of God vs. Love of Christ

• Comparison and choice of Jesus (Peaceful nonviolent) or Barabbas (the violent insurrectionist Messiah)

  • They chose person who would fight and crucified Jesus

• Peacemakers cultivate the future Jesus promised

  • Do the work, stop waiting for Jesus to come back and solve all of the problems

• We are passive in our violence

1:09:00 The Resurrection

• Eschatology

  • Understanding of how things end

• Sunday’s Resurrection - symbolized the end we seek is starting to be lived out

• Early church decided to live out the future now

  • Model the way of Jesus

• Dave Andrews

  • “On our best days we’ll approximate the kingdom of God on earth and on our worst days we’ll  parody and mimic kingdom of God”

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43. Christianity, Anarchism & The Lord of The Rings with Caleb Kesterson

In this episode, Craig speaks with Caleb Kesterson about his journey to Christian-Anarchy, what the Anabaptist can teach us about Christianity, and his articles, Tolkien and the Night Watchmen State and Tolkein and Power. 

Caleb is passionate about peace and was raised in Assemblies of God tradition before finding alignment with the anti-war and Jesus-centric approach of the Anabaptist. He now runs a home church, in an effort to foster discipleship and bring the teachings of Christ into the larger society. 

Craig and Caleb finish their conversation by exploring Tolkien’s The Lord of the Rings, and what Tolkien has to teach us through the novels about a voluntary society. We all know the books are better than the movies, and thankfully Caleb is here to give us that insight for a Christian-anarchist perspective.

You can connect with Caleb on Twitter @CalebMK5 and find his articles on the Bad Roman Blog.

Timestamps & starting points:

1:51 Caleb’s Background

• Bruxy Cavey & Scott Horton

• Works Agriculture

• Runs a home church

• Assemblies of God to Anabaptist

4:16 Anabaptist, the State & the Early Church

• Anti War movement

• Postcards from Babylon Documentary

• Caleb wants to see an Anabaptism that goes out into the world and meets people where they are vs. isolates 

• Keith Giles, Jesus Untangled

11:49 How Caleb found the Bad Roman Project

• Don’t always see anarchy, Christianity, and peace together

13:55 Christian Right vs. Christian Left

• “Punch people in the mouth lovingly” 

• Left is honest about Tyranny, Right more secretive; but both do the same things

• Trump vs. Obama supporters

• January 6th was trying to keep their master in office

21:00 Absurdities of Statism

• Biden bombing Syria and not ending “conflict” in Yemen vs. what he said

• Lysander Spooner - defensive voting

• Fallacy of defensive voting

  • You are still voting for someone to have power over your neighbor

• Fear voting is the worst voting

• Endorsing tyrannical actions overseas and at home

• Antiwar.com

• “Shooting people at the borders” is not a Christian sentiment

 26:35 Craig’s Social Media Strategy for making people think

• Baiting conversation, not to change minds, but for the curious ones in the comments

• Showing concern for QAnon supporters mental health 

28:26 Is Craig in a cult?

• Many ways to read the bible

  • Anabaptists start with what Jesus said/did and work from there

• Jesus, “you’ve seen me you see the father”

• Let’s get back to Jesus

• Jesus came not to cause division

  • With 30,00 denominations there is clearly some division

32:05 Caleb’s First Article:

• Disclaimer: Caleb is not a Tolkien expert

• Minarchism

• Tolkien’s Shire is voluntary

  • Hardly any positions in government

  • There is a sheriff

  • A governor 

  • Hierarchy established through family origin 

• rangers chose to protect the land they are not forced

38:37 Article #2: Tolkien and Power

• Gandolf’s rejection of the ring and the pitfalls of power

• John 6 Jesus rejects being king over people by force

• Matthew 25 Jesus explains his new kingdom

• 1 Corinthians 127

5. Keith Giles & Abby Cleckner - Untangling Jesus to Love Jesus

In this episode Craig is joined by Keith Giles, author of Jesus Untangled, and our contributor Abby Cleckner. Keith Giles is a former pastor who left the pulpit to follow Jesus and start a house church where no one takes a salary and 100 percent of all offerings are given to help the poor in the community. He has been a published writer since 1989.

Their conversation centers on Keith’s book and his entire Jeus-un series. Keith helps us reframe our perspective of Christianity from that of worshipping a book about Jesus to moving into a growing and personal relationship with Christ Himself. Jesus is who we have been called to follow out of fear and into love— not the state, not the pastor, but Jesus.

Starting points for further exploration on topics from the show:

10:00 Mark Twain quote: It’s Easier to Fool People Than to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled? (great quote might not be by Mark Twain)

 12:28 Jesus Unbound

13:03 Story of two soldiers

16:42 Eberhard Arnold

24:20 Study he is referring to: Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens Martin Gilens and Benjamin I.

28:00 Roe v. Wade

29:01 Planned Parenthood Funding shows increased funding most recent fiscal cycle 

29:40  Sandra Day O’Connor

30:34 Jerry Faldwell

39:00 Flat Bible vs. Jesus Centric Perspective

50:57 Anabaptist