121. Israel of the Bible vs Today's Nation State Waging Genocide in Gaza and How to Get Back to Jesus with Grace Batchoun

About this Episode

Is the world turning a blind eye to the plight of Palestinians? Grace Batchoun, a Christian and Co-founder of Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East, joins Craig for a deeply personal conversation about the ongoing Occupation of the Palestinian people and genocide in Gaza. Grace shares her journey as a Palestinian Christian and highlights the dire situation in Gaza, challenging the narrative of Israel's self-defense. 

Grace and Craig emphasize the need for Christians to align with the teachings of Jesus by advocating for peace and justice over death and destruction. Grace deconstructs the ongoing expansion of settlements, which defy international law and United Nations resolutions. How does this impact the lives of those in the region? The conversation unpacks the complexities of everyday life brought on by the Israeli Occupation of Palestinians, urging listeners to reconsider their perspectives and recognize the humanity of Palestinians. 

The current humanitarian crisis and genocide in Gaza is another focal point. The severe conditions caused by Israeli blockades and refusal to work toward a ceasefire agreement—continuing the unending starvation, destroyed infrastructure, and families in distress. What does this mean for the people living there, and how can the international community respond?

Craig and Grace also examine the role of evangelical Christian support for Israel. Does this stance align with the teachings of Jesus on peace and justice, or does it contradict them? Through personal stories and historical context, this episode offers a Palestinian perspective on displacement and life under occupation.

Finally, the discussion sheds light on the broader implications of Israel's actions on international law and human rights. How do these actions measure up against the conventions established after World War II? Listen to this episode of the Bad Roman Podcast and join the conversation online as we navigate these challenging topics, encouraging listeners to reflect on justice, peace, and the power of global solidarity.

Learn More about Palestine:

Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East

Episode Timestamps:

(0:22) Addressing the Gaza Crisis

• Craig expresses concern over the escalating situation in Gaza

• mainstream narrative that frames Israel as merely defending itself against terrorism.

(2:07) Grace Batchoun’s Background

• Grace shares her family's history as Palestinian refugees and her journey to Canada.

• Her parents were expelled from Palestine in 1948, leading to a life of displacement and eventual settlement in Canada.

• Grace discusses her Christian faith, which she embraced through InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and her active role in church ministries.

(4:09) Awakening to Activism

• Grace recounts a pivotal moment in 2002 that shifted her focus from personal life to activism, following a tragic incident in Jenin.

• The story of Jamal Fayid a paraplegic man crushed by an Israeli tank sparked her involvement in humanitarian efforts.

• This incident led to her collaboration with World Vision and the founding of Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East.

(6:41) Humanitarian vs. Occupation Crisis

• Grace emphasizes the need to address the root cause of the conflict: the occupation.

• She argues that the issue is not merely humanitarian but deeply political, rooted in military oppression and land colonization.

• The ongoing occupation perpetuates suffering and prevents any lasting peace or resolution.

(9:07) Misinterpretations Among Christians

• Common misinterpretation among Christians regarding Israel as a nation state versus a biblical concept.

• Grace and Craig stress the importance of understanding the biblical context, where Israel is seen as a spiritual entity rather than a modern nation state.

• Confusion among Christians who equate biblical Israel with the current political state.

(12:12) The Reality of Gaza

• Grace provides stark statistics on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, including the destruction of infrastructure and the high number of casualties, particularly among women and children.

• Gaza as one of the most densely populated areas, suffering from severe shortages of basic necessities.

• The blockade and military actions have led to a dire humanitarian situation, with widespread destruction and loss of life.

(16:30) Genocide or Defense?

• The actions of Israel meet the definition of genocide.

• international legal definitions of genocide and how they apply to the current situation.

• Challenges the narrative that frames Israel's actions as self-defense, highlighting the disproportionate impact on civilians.

(19:01) Personal Stories and Historical Context

• Grace shares her family's displacement and the broader historical context of Palestinian expulsion and land loss.

• She recounts her family's experiences of being expelled from their home and the ongoing struggle for recognition and rights.

• The historical context of the 1948 Nakba and subsequent conflicts is discussed to provide a deeper understanding of the current situation.

(25:56) The Ongoing Occupation

• Grace details the continued expansion of Israeli settlements and the impact on Palestinian lives, drawing parallels to historical injustices.

• systematic displacement of Palestinians and the appropriation of their land for settlements.

• legal and ethical implications of the occupation and the international community's response.

(33:07) Misconceptions About Hamas

• Both speakers clarify that their stance is not in support of Hamas but rather in defense of human rights and international law.

• a common misconception that criticism of Israel equates to support for Hamas.

• The focus is on advocating for the rights and dignity of all people, regardless of political affiliations.

(36:09) International Response and U.S. Influence

• Grace discusses the global response to the conflict and the significant role of U.S. support for Israel, which she argues hinders peace efforts.

• The influence of U.S. foreign policy and military aid in perpetuating the conflict is examined.

• Grace calls for reevaluating international support and a push for genuine peace initiatives.

(41:32) The Role of Christians and the Church

• Craig and Grace critique the church's role in perpetuating misconceptions and call for a return to Jesus' teachings, focusing on peace and justice.

• They discuss the responsibility of Christians to challenge unjust systems and advocate for the oppressed.

• need for the church to be a voice for peace and reconciliation

(48:22) Call to Action

• Grace urges Christians to advocate for peace and justice, emphasizing the need for awareness and action against the ongoing occupation and humanitarian crisis.

• She calls for a collective effort to educate and mobilize communities to support human rights.

• The importance of speaking out and taking a stand against injustice is highlighted as a core Christian value.

(54:14) Personal Transformation and Advocacy

• Grace reflects on her journey from personal focus to activism, highlighting the importance of individual action in the face of global issues.

• She shares her experiences of overcoming apathy and becoming a vocal advocate for justice.

• The transformative power of personal stories and the impact of grassroots activism 

(1:02:11) Closing Thoughts

• Craig and Grace conclude with a call for continued advocacy and awareness, stressing the importance of speaking out against injustice.

• They encourage listeners to educate themselves and others about the realities of the conflict.

• The episode ends with a reminder of the power of collective action and the potential for change.

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96. Christian-Palestinian: Unveiling the Obscured Narrative with Daniel Bannoura

About this Episode

Get ready for an insightful and heart-wrenching journey as we chat with Daniel Benora, a Christian Palestinian, who gives us an inside look into the longstanding conflict between Israel and Palestine. With a direct line to the ground reality, Daniel candidly shares the pain and terror experienced by his friends and family in Gaza due to Israeli attacks. Hear the unfiltered narrative of Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, who have been overshadowed in the Western world, as we delve into the complexities of this ongoing strife.

Daniel courageously unravels the obscured narrative of Palestinians, both Christian and Muslim, demonstrating the importance of understanding the dynamics of this ongoing strife. How do we stay informed when the Western media narrative leans heavily in favor of one side? The conversation deepens as we probe into the biased portrayal of the Middle East in the media, exposing its racist undertones. Together with Daniel, we dissect the colonial mentality and its aftermath, scrutinizing how it frames the Middle East as backward and violent. We also delve into the implications of Zionism, the British Empire's role in Jewish migration to Palestine, opening up the discussion to the way it's used to justify violence against Palestinians. 

As we draw toward the end of our conversation, we venture into the stormy waters of violence, faith, and pacifism within the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Daniel reveals the inspiring ways Palestinian Christians channel faith into nonviolent resistance against injustice. We wrap up by challenging the misconceptions surrounding God and his people, urging Christians to seek truth, justice, and love over violence and ignorance. 

 Join us as we reveal how the media, the US government, and the Church perpetuate this idea, all the while emphasizing the importance of nuance in understanding this conflict. Here's a chance to challenge your perspectives and possibly transform your understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian plight.

Connect with Daniel:

• Across the Divide Podcast

• Google Docs Resource

• Listen to Daniel on Theology in the Raw

Episode Timestamps:

(00:02) The Israel-Palestine Occupation

Daniel shares the injustice and violence Palestinians have faced, highlighting the terror and pain caused by Israeli attacks on Christian and Muslim Palestinians.

(10:29) Understanding Gaza and Palestinian Identity

Daniel shares his family's 13-generation history in Bethlehem, discussing the plight of Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Palestine.

(14:26) Christian Palestinian Identity and Ignorance

Daniel Benora's Christian Palestinian experience, ignorance and apathy in the West, and the complicity of media and pastors in creating and perpetuating this ignorance are explored.

(18:39) Western Media's Middle East Bias

We examine Orientalism, Palestinian Christians, and the colonial mentality of the Western world to challenge racism in the Middle East.

(27:34) Influence on Israeli-Palestinian Occupation by Politics, Media, Religion

Zionism's history, anti-Semitism, British Empire, violence against Palestinians, media, US government, Church, and justice for Palestinians discussed.

(39:59) Violence and Pacifism in Israeli-Palestinian Occupation

We examine Hamas' motivations, self-defense ideology, Israel's surprise, and faith identity in a violent context.

(53:13) The Palestinian Christian Perspective

Palestinian Christians discuss nonviolent resistance, US imperialism, preferential option for the poor, and the way of the cross.

(58:41) Misrepresentation of God and His People

We question God's representation in war, reject the distinction between Jews and non-Jews, and explore faith, not lineage, for righteousness and God's love.

(01:03:08) Jesus and the Old Testament

Daniel discusses Christ-centered Bible reading, repentance for violence, and researching the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

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95. Was Jesus Palestinian? with Jeffery Stevens

About this Episode

Tune in for an insightful conversation with Jeffrey Stevens, an independent journalist and director of the Azarius Project, as we take a hard look at the Israeli occupation of Palestinian territory and the impact it's having on the Christian and other communities within these borders. Hear firsthand about the misinformation circulating among Christian Americans and learn about Jeffrey's own transformation from being pro-Israel to acknowledging the impossibility of supporting both Israel and the sanctity of life simultaneously. 

If you’re one of us, or you’re new here, you should know that there has always been a personal journey at the heart of The Bad Roman Project. It’s been one that's demanded a complete overhaul of previous beliefs. A path paved with discomfort while challenging long-held perceptions and demanding an honest reassessment of Christian values. As always, there's so much more to the story than what's on the surface and what’s important is that we talk about it. 

While mainstream media often skews the reality on the ground, our conversation challenges those narratives and scrutinizes the role of the US and Israeli governments in perpetuating the inhumane policies of the occupation. In this uncompromising discourse, we're asking the hard questions, discussing who gets to define terrorism, examining the treatment of Palestinians (both Muslim and Christian), and unlocking the transformative power of relationships to remedy bias in our perspectives.

But our journey doesn't stop there. In this episode, we're bringing the focus back home, because change starts on your doorstep. We discuss the importance of evangelizing in our own neighborhoods and fostering a personal relationship with Jesus. Be prepared for a lively debate on what Jesus' stance would be of his birthland today and the recognition that the world is indeed larger than just the United States. So, buckle up and come along for an enlightening, perhaps life-altering ride with us. 

Connect with Jeffery:

Catholic Workers Project

Azarias Project

Arab American News

Catholic Wordsmith

Episode Timestamps:

1:05 Correct framing as the illegal Occupation vs. the Israel-Palestine Conflict

• Joe Chadburn Episode

• Importance of independent journalism

• Importance of reframing the language we use to describe a topic

• Unpacking beliefs about Israel in Christian upbringing

• Used to cover Vatican news until 2009 began covering Israel-Palestine 

4:52 Who is Jeffery Stevens?

• Arab American News

• Director of Azarias Project

• Grew up: pro-life, pro-Israel Christian

• Difference between pro-life and anti-abortion

• Blood Brothers Book by Palestinian Catholic Priest, Elias Chacour (Author), David Hazard (Author), James Baker (Foreword) 

• Jesus is Palestinian, not Israeli

• When Bible speaks of Israel it’s referring to Christians not the Israeli government

8:08 Conviction of USA and Israel as the “good guys” against terrorism

• Post-9/11 

• You can respect veterans and still be critical of USA’s imperialism 

• Jesus Christ would not approve of what is happening in the Middle East no matter who is doing it

• Governments can often be found to act more in accordance to the definition of terrorism than those we call the name

• Military bases and proximity to oil reserves

• Syria

• Smedley Butler (Joe Chadburn)

• French Concrete Company sued for assisting ISIS — millions of dollars the US government kept it

• Should Christians care about what is happening in the birthplace of Christianity?

15:16 Where the End of the Earth Begins article on The Catholic Wordsmith

• Acts 1:8

• Popular Christian evangelical verse, we seek to evangelize in frogmen lands and forget to do so in our own neighborhood

• Christians only on Sundays?

• “Jesus would have to cross 15 Israeli checkpoints and a 30-foot wall to get to Bethlehem”

• Americans fail to understand what “occupation” means

• Palestinian Christian population over time and occupation’s influence on their decline

• Israeli Occupation forces and desire for all Jewish state, turning Al_Asqua Mosque into a temple

• Bible bans Jews from 3rd Temple

• Far-right drive

• Texas cows flown to Israel

28:10 Who is funding Israel?

• Palestine of all religions suffer at the hands of this funding under an occupation

• Trump and Israel

33:44 Jenin [on] the Fourth from Arab American News

• West Bank, Refugee Camps

• “Terrorist hot-spot” vs. resistance fighters and patriots

• Ron Paul

• Blowback

• Boston Tea Party was not peaceful

• The American Revolution

• Were we better off before?

• Jesus’s disciples

• Writing about Old Testament and current affairs

• Azarias Project

• Book of Tobit, Archangel Raphael

48:51 The World is Bigger than the USA

• Yemen and Saudi 

• Saudi Golf Tour

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82. What do jiu-jitsu and anarchism have in common? with Tyler Rose

About this Episode

What happens when the Bad Roman meets a Christian Anarchist while training for jiu-jitsu? He invites him on the show, of course. Tyler Rose and Craig discuss Christianity, anarchy philosophy, self-reliance, and their experiences in the jiu-jitsu gym. They discuss why the term “good cop” is an oxymoron and contrast the need for a sovereign state with enforcers with self-reliance and the benefits of learning jiu-jitsu.

There seem to be a lot of libertarian or anarchism-inclined people amongst those who are regularly at the gym training in jiu-jitsu; many hold to ideas of decentralization, individualism, and self-reliance. Tyler suggests that jiu-jitsu has everything for the intellectual and anyone who is athletically built. Craig and Tyler talk about the various types of people they’ve met and their experiences grappling in the gym. As a Christian and a pacifist, one of the neat things about jiu-jitsu is its ability to teach anyone how to control any violent situation while deciding exactly how much damage their opponent will sustain as they take control of any violent incident to protect themselves or their family. If you practice a martial-art or have ever thought about taking up jiu-jitsu, this episode is a must-listen!

Tyler Rose:

Fountain Memphis – Pentecostal church in Bartlett

Brotherhood jiu-jitsu in Mountainview Arkansas

Memphis Judo and Jiu-jitsu

Episode Timestamps:

1:48 – Who is Tyler Rose?

• Pentecostal 

• Got into politics at age 15 with an interest in American political history

• Saw the revolutionary war as ‘God inspired’

• Became libertarian, then anarchist

• Self-reliance is important

• Grew up in North Memphis

7:56 – We don’t need a sovereign government or their cops

• The church should help the vulnerable, widows, and orphans

• It was done with consensual aid in the early church

• All laws end in death

• If it’s not worth someone dying over, don’t call the cops

• Good cops cannot exist

• The job of governing others is inherently evil

• Law enforcement is nothing but a gang

• Cops can disrespect a man, and he can’t do anything back

• If any man without a badge and gun spoke like a cop, they would be punched

• Cops have lost respect for other men

• “Just following orders” is a terrible excuse

• Tyler’s “friend” who was a cop, was bragging about injuring a man on the street

21:40 – Don’t rely on the police; learn jiu-jitsu instead

• Men should be able to defend themselves and their families on their own

• That’s why jiu-jitsu was attractive to Craig

• The jiu-jitsu community is very encouraging

• The anarchist and jiu-jitsu communities seem to overlap quite a bit

• People who are athletic and smart tend to enjoy jiu-jitsu

• Jiu-jitsu is great for increasing physical strength

• But it's still better to use defense and control the fight than overpower anyone

• Jiu-jitsu is good for teaching children discipline and self-defense

• Jiu-jitsu is the most popular art that avoids punching people but will still give the sportsman the advantage in a fight

• There’s no need to harm your drunk uncle 

• You can put someone out calmly with jiu-jitsu

• The argument can be over without ever injuring a person

• At 56 years old, Henzo could defend himself against a random attack on the subway

• It gives confidence in one’s capabilities to be well-prepared in any situation

• Jiu-jitsu can aid women in self-defense as well

• When Tyler began, he got his but kicked by a teenage girl who weighed much less than him

52:40 – Anarchy philosophy

• No King But Christ means, “I already have a king. I don’t need a politician.”

• There are two responses to the term anarchy

• People would just run the streets shooting people because there are no laws

• No, people don’t shoot other people because they are good people

• It’s still wrong to violate life, liberty, and property

• Anarchists aren’t out there throwing Molotov cocktails

• It’s in our best interest to get along

• Craig thinks jiu-jitsu and anarchy are similar in that everyone encourages and helps their fellow man to do better and succeed 

• Tyler agrees

• Tyler has noticed that most regular jiu-jitsu practitioners hold to ideas of decentralization and self-reliance

• They are intelligent enough to know they need to defend themselves

• They are mostly libertarian and close to anarchism

• Maybe even anarchists without realizing it or saying it

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75. Finding Common Ground Between Christian and Secular Anarchists with Alan Mosley

About this Episode

Craig is joined by Alan Mosley, the host of “It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley”, historian and libertarian writer, for a friendly discussion about what Alan, an atheist and anarchist, has in common with Christian anarchists. They work through the anarchist catchphrase, “No rulers, no masters, no gods”, exploring its meaning and conclude that Christian and secular anarchists can, and indeed should, be allies in liberty. 

Alan could school some Christians in the teachings of Jesus, especially concerning holding an anti-war stance, the application of the non-aggression principle and disdain for institutional structures. The way Alan sees it, the church has been conquered by the state. Churches fly the American flag and teach the Christian voting block to hate their neighbors and enemies, in direct contrast to the teachings of Jesus. The Bible is full of revolutionary thoughts that, if applied, should transform societies just as they have in the past. 

Craig and Alan discuss everything from dropping bombs to end WWII, support for troops and how to improve their psychological well-being, judging the morality of historical characters from past eras, and things that make the church unappealing to unbelievers. Yet, they continuously come back to the need to speak the truth about all of these things courageously. 

Alan Mosley:

YouTube: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Facebook: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Twitter: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Apple Podcast: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Article: Ike and Leahy Were Right: The Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki Were Wrong

Episode Timestamps:

1:38 – Who is Alan Mosley?

• Podcast host

• Jazz musician

• Historian

• Writer

3:22 – What common grounds do atheists and Christian anarchists have?

• Anti-war

• Not interested in playing politics with war

• WWII and the atomic bomb

• Christian anarchists and libertarians are good on this topic

• The early church were pacifists and anti-war

• Christians should not defend war

• Christians should opt out until the government receivess no support for war

• We need to raise children on principles of non-aggression so they don’t join the military

• These need to be spoken of rather than ignored

• Police officers are trained in an us-versus-them mentality

• Churches teach this way too

• That was not in the teachings of Christ

• Supporting the troops is talking about the pressures that face them when they come home

• High suicide rates

• Participating in drone bombing pre-schools

• Improving their psychological well-being

• Stopping children from entering the recruiting offices

• Just following orders is not a good excuse

• It enables the bad ideas of angry rich men in DC to happen

25:27 - The state has conquered churches

• That’s what the American flag on the stage means

• The flag is a rival of Christ

• The state manipulates people through the state

• Turning you against your neighbor and enemy

• Making people afraid of the other team

• Creating a voting block

• Christians should be suspicious of the state; it killed Jesus

30:14 – Comparing morality through the ages

• It’s easy to look back and assume moral superiority over the founding fathers over their non-politically correct actions

• If you look at the state of the world now compared to earlier times, scripture was full of revolutionary ideas

• Live by the sword, die by the sword

• Might makes right was the ethos of humanities history

• The Bible is full of transformational thoughts

• Christian history is full of people giving their lives to defend their faith

• But these days, people won’t talk about their beliefs in case they are ostracized

34:55 – What makes the church unattractive to unbelievers?

• Not representing Jesus correctly

• Endorsing war and the state

• Not helping the poor and widows

• Unequivocal support for Israel’s war atrocities makes the church unappealing

• Warmongers in Israel don’t care about you even though your taxes pay their way

42:15 – The roots of liberty

• Anarchy is the root of liberty

• Christ made everyone with liberty

• Can anarchists serve Christ?

• More atheists are statists

• Alan says no enforced rulers, no enforced masters, no enforced gods

• True Christians are not for theocratic fascists

• Adding enforced to the catchphrase makes more sense

• Bible-thumping church-goers are insufferable

• Christian anarchists and secular anarchists should be allies in liberty

• Jesus was the OG anarchist

• Be charitable in attempting to understand your opponent’s worldview

• It helps build a community

• We should not be forced into relationships that we do not want to be a part of either

• Pick your battles

• Find the like-minded remnant

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56. Following God Beyond the Blue Line with Terrell Carter

About this episode

Terrell Carter is a pastor and the president of a community development organization. At 16, he felt the call to ministry to do what he can to improve people’s lives and help different groups understand each other. At 23, he thought he could do that as a police officer, and they offered him benefits that would support his growing family. After 5 years, he had to quit because he wouldn’t stand for the corruption in the force and testified against his partner. He’s written several books and runs Rise, a nonprofit organization working to connect communities with local institutions to empower the revitalization of neighborhoods in Greater St. Louis, while pastoring a church and raising his children. 

Terrell has come on the podcast to shed light on his unique perspectives and experiences. He shares with us what it was like growing up black in a predominantly white community, how the police force didn’t fit with his life of Kingdom mission, and what it looks like to actually carry out the call of God to care for other people. One of his life goals is to bring different groups of people together through an understanding of each other, and today he is doing that by sharing his own story with us, who mostly come from a different background than his.

Episode Timestamps:

5:23 Terrell’s story

• African American

• Has a twin brother

• Grandparents and parents were teen parents

• Parents got married, but didn't stay together after Dad went into the army

  • But Dad’s parents helped raise them

• Parents didn’t get through high school

• Mom got in with bad crowds

  • Boys moved in with grandparents

  • She was murdered when boys were 7

• Everything is dedicated to his grandparents because without them, he would have never succeeded

• Moved in with Dad’s new family in Texas at 14

• Only issues were people being suspicious of them since it was a predominantly white town

  • But Brother graduated 4th in class; he graduated 11th

  • His brother won several writing competitions; he won awards for art

  • Both played sports

  • Both earned academic and athletic scholarships

  • Brother still plays baseball

• At 16, Terrell heard the call to ministry

  • Not just made to soak everything up

    • But to influence God’s people from a leadership position

• Returned to St Louis after graduating high school

  • It was a completely different place

  • In 4 years, the community went from majority homeowners to gang members

  • The first thing their grandparents told them was: don’t wear red or blue

  • Still a majority white city

    • Now, everyone thought black young men were all criminals

      • Didn’t know that Terrell was in Bible college

      • His brother had just placed in a huge writing competition

      • They were both in college and working jobs and creating beauty and attending church

• Married

  • Both he and his brother wanted to be husbands and fathers

• When his wife got pregnant, he looked for a job to provide for all their needs

  • Became a police officer

    • Paid for him to finish college

    • Pension

• Started on patrol; wound up on the toughest corner in the city. At night.

• Reassigned to plainclothes narcotics investigator

  • Kicking down doors, search warrants…

  • Turns out, his partner was into illegal activities

    • Terrell didn’t lie for him

      • Because he fears God

      • And because his partner was disrespecting people who were in a different place in life than he was

    • His partner did about 5 years in federal prison

    • When Terrell found out he was going to actually testify in court, he quit his job

      • He was being threatened by multiple people

      • “I had been told in no uncertain terms that if I tried to stand up for those kinds of things, then I would find myself out on the street by myself and something was going to happen to me.” -Terrell

• Went through multiple careers

• Got second doctorate

• Now president of Rise, a community development organization

  • Also, exhibiting art

  • Writing books

  • And pastoring a church

• Life calling: to try and help people understand each other and see God’s image in one another

  • That’s really everyone's calling

18:39 Why Terrell needed to come on the show

• Craig heard Terrell on Michael Storm’s show, Toward Anarchy

• Craig grew up in West Texas with maybe one black kid K-8

  • In middle school in San Angelo, there was a mix of races

  • High school in Fort Worth, was even more, diverse

    • Got to know kids in his class who didn’t fit negative stereotypes

    • Played sports together

  • Now in Memphis, the most diverse city he’s lived in

• “One of the challenges we have as Christians in the 21st century is we don't embrace that diversity.” - Terrell

• 3 books were written to help white Christians Understand that their experience is different from everyone else's

  • Healing Racial Divides: Finding Strength in our Diversity

  • Police on a Pedestal: Responsible Policing in a Culture of Worship

  • Taking Apart Bootstrap Theology: Gospel of Generosity and Justice

• MLK said that the most segregated hour of the week is during church

  • People worship with people they’re similar to

  • If there’s someone of a different race within a majority church, chances are, they're of the same economic background as the rest of the congregation

    • Still have a common understanding of the world; speak the same language

23:12 Terrell’s time on the force

• Arresting somebody knowing they were a child of God

  • “Whatever their life circumstances may have been… God created them and I don't get to judge them based on how their life turned out.” - Terrell

• There was a church parking lot in St. Louis where he used to write police reports

  • The pastor got killed by a kid he had taken under his wing

    • No one wanted to take over his position

    • Terrell’s seminary asked him to step in

• He worried someone he arrested would come in and lash out at him

  • He had a signal to his wife to get the kids and flee

  • Someone he’d arrested for domestic violence approached him

    • And said thank you

    • Terrell had treated him like a human

      • Talked to him on the way to jail

      • Encouraged him to turn his life around

        • He did

  • Terrell got in trouble at work for trying to help people improve

    • The police department just wants the cops to gather statistics and arrest people, not care about them

• “I didn't treat people like they were animals. I tried to treat them like they were children of God and that they may be experiencing a negative life circumstance, but that didn't have to be where they were going.” - Terrell

  • Not the normal attitude

  • They were never told to go help people; they were told to not do anything stupid

• Could work a secondary job (like security) in uniform with all rights and power of a policeman

  • A sergeant told him to stop and just get overtime instead

29:48 Craig’s background

• Wore a thin blue line bracelet

• Defending all cops’ actions

  • “They’re just following/enforcing the law”  

• Realized police are there to protect the state, not citizens

• Then George Floyd got killed

  • Murdered

  • Craig would have once been one of the guys saying, “If he had just not resisted, he would not have been killed”

32:02 How we got here

• White people are in power and everyone else is subject

  • That’s the system that's in place

    •  Doesn't make white people bad

  • Certain people groups’ existence has been criminalized

    • Black women have been dubbed “welfare queens” – by a president

      • For the record, white women use social services more

    • Black men are assumed to be violent criminals

      • The culture of fear surrounding black people has been built up

    • Policing began to control the Native American population trying to get their land back

      • And then escaped or released slaves

• Police are there to protect against all crimes and criminalized peoples

  • “It doesn't matter what a police officer does, as long as they make white people feel better or feel protected, then we're okay.” -Terrell

  • But if police treat white people like they do minorities, they get in legal trouble

    • Minorities are believed to deserve it

• White people often ask, “Why didn’t he just cooperate?”

  • Why can’t they just do what they’re told??

    • Sounds like a slavery question

  • Why can’t they get along with everyone else?

  • “That's from a position of power when you have not experienced what these people groups have experienced. And so that's part of what the challenge is.” - Terrell

  • The state is an agent of slavery

• Sports example

  • Lebron James tried to speak out

    • Was silenced

    • “Just because he makes millions of dollars doesn't mean that people respect or view him as fully human. No, they view him as a commodity for their entertainment.” - Terrell

38:18 Trying to reconcile policing as a Christian (not to mention a pastor)

• “There's no way to reconcile them other than saying, ‘I'm just going to do what I'm told. I'm not going to think about it.’” - Terrell

  • Told himself there were no other prospects

• From the very beginning, people were expecting him to falsify reports

• He was told to go with the system

  • Pushback was dangerous

41:43 Terrell’s life now

• Has a handful of friends from the force

• Many officers have forgotten the past

  • But writing books opens old wounds

• Most are still mad he didn't toe the line 

• All his friends from the force kept being cops

  • Some acquaintances quit

• Several readers of his books have told him they wish they could have been as brave as he was

  • Or that someone in their department would have stood up because maybe they would have joined him

44:04 Rise

• Community development corporation that seeks to make safer, healthier, more equitable communities and neighborhoods in St. Louis city and St. Louis, Madison, and St. Claire counties in Illinois

• Builds or assists others in building affordable housing

  • Government funds cut the rent just about in half for those in need

  • Give funds to female or minority-owned construction companies

  • Fund developers who are looking to improve the health of the community

  • Assist cities and municipalities with planning

• Fits pretty well with the call to make people's lives better

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54. Waging Peace: Seeing God Before the Resurrection with Jason Porterfield

About this episode

Author and self-proclaimed ‘aspiring peacemaker,’ Jason Porterfield, returns to the show to walk Bad Roman co-hosts, Craig Harguess and Abby Cleckner, through his new book, Fight Like Jesus: How Jesus Waged Peace Throughout Holy Week.  

Come Spring we tend to look straight to Easter, to the miracle of the resurrection, but just how much do we miss when we forget the why and how of what led up to Christ’s crucifixion? By taking an in-depth look at each day in the final week of Jesus’ life, Jason’s book is a guide and game-changer for any Christian who still thinks Jesus died to protect us from a wrathful God. 

God is love! He is not a hammer or sword-wielding warrior, but a force of mercy, humility, and reckoning. How often do we forget this today? How often do we use the bible to justify violent means to imagined peaceful ends? 

“Jesus used a whip in the temple”

“Jesus told them to take swords”

“Jesus said render unto Caesar”

How many of our enemies must we fight or destroy to create peace? How many verses must we take out of context to justify our sin? Peter was scolded for his violence and we remain under the same command to disarm. 

To build the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, to try to love one another and our enemies in the way Christ set forth is a radical position to take both in Jesus’s time and now. Holy Week is crucial to understanding how God’s love works. It is through those days we see and experience Jesus’s message and example in action. 

This episode is a challenge to you to look at yourself, your actions, and if they reflect what you think you believe. It can be easy to think we are on the right side of the resurrection, that we, of course, are on the side of Jesus, but it is just as easy to fail to see we are the ones plotting against the way of peacemaking, that we are the ones holding the hammer over our savior on the cross. We invite you to listen with an open mind, to humble yourself to the folly we all are susceptible to fall into in the midst of miracles. 

If you want to learn more about Jason’s work and message you can connect with him on his website, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Episode Timestamps:

2:15 Episode #14 Fight Like a Christian with Keith Giles and Jason 

3:20 Motivation for writing Fight Like Jesus: How Jesus Waged Peace Throughout Holy Week  

• Failing as a peacemaker

• How do you Love your enemy and neighbor when your enemy is oppressing your neighbor

• Holy week is when we see Jesus enacting all he has said as an active peacemaker

8:08 Why was Jesus shedding tears?

• Passover

• Pontius Pilate

• Hosana translates to “save us now”

• Palm Branches - politically loaded symbols of rebellion

  • Judas Maccabeus

14:16 Christians waging/supporting war vs. living out teachings of Jesus

• Jesus comes back as lamb not warrior

• Revelations 6

19:30 Monday - Jesus Cleansing the Temple

• Ched Myers

  • Jesus returns with planned, calculated action, not rash “temple fit”

• John’s mention of whip used to justify violence by Christians

  • St. Augustine

  • John Calvin, having Servetus put to death

  • Bernard of Clairvaux

• Did Jesus whip people?

  • No, it was more of shooing animal whip - not an instrument of torture

• Catholic Theologian Raymond Brown

  • Whip material was likely animal bedding materials

• John 2:15 

  • Greek translation reveals ‘tu’ modifies all to be sheep and cattle, i.e. John is clarifying who he is using the whip on

• Jesus was not passive in the face of injustice, he was an active pacifist

  • Jesus’s zeal does not destroy, it opens up more for everyone 

  • After the cleansing those who were excluded were invited in

31:32 Tuesday (part 1) - Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and God what is God’s

• Mark 12

• Jesus uses the word “repay” vs. “pay”

  • He switches the verb of the question, which requires you to answer the question of what belongs to God and what belongs to Cesar? 

• Did Jesus’s supporters hear (misinterpret) something else in “pay back” what is owed?

• Jesus leaves people with more questions than answers - makes you think

36:51 Tuesday (part 2) - The 7 Woes

• Speaking truth to power or using authority/power to bash and crush others?

• Easier to see ourselves on the side or Jesus vs. Pharisees

 38:18 Wednesday - Eye of the Hurricane, Quiet Day with  'Backroom Deals’ 

• Jewish leaders scheme to murder Jesus

  • Caiaphas and The Sanhedrin 

• Judas excepting price to betray Jesus

• Unnamed woman

  • First to anoint Jesus as messiah 

• USA Bombing of Cambodia

  • Khmer Rouge 

• Fictional future to justify a present means

 45:10 Thursday (Part 1) - The New Command

• Love each other as I have loved you

  • New standard of love he set in how to love

• What is true evangelism?

  • Living and being the community of God so others can experience it

  • Make others curious about your life by how much you love God 

• 1 Peter 2 

• Faciniation precedes explanation

51:30 Thursday (Part 2) - The Two Swords (Gun Culture)

• Jesus healed the roman soldier harmed by Peter

• Not “time is not right” but “time is never right” attitude to violence

• Two swords allow them to appear as a violence mob, but then reject that violence as an example

• Disciples fled when Jesus revoked Peter’s violence  

  • They were ready to fight for a new king

59:10 Friday - Understating the Crucifiction 

• Did Jesus die to save us from God?

• Fear of God vs. Love of Christ

• Comparison and choice of Jesus (Peaceful nonviolent) or Barabbas (the violent insurrectionist Messiah)

  • They chose person who would fight and crucified Jesus

• Peacemakers cultivate the future Jesus promised

  • Do the work, stop waiting for Jesus to come back and solve all of the problems

• We are passive in our violence

1:09:00 The Resurrection

• Eschatology

  • Understanding of how things end

• Sunday’s Resurrection - symbolized the end we seek is starting to be lived out

• Early church decided to live out the future now

  • Model the way of Jesus

• Dave Andrews

  • “On our best days we’ll approximate the kingdom of God on earth and on our worst days we’ll  parody and mimic kingdom of God”

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46. Who is your God? with ian minielly

Former Green Beret Ian Minielly joins us in this episode to talk about Christians and the military. Ian joined the army after college because he didn’t have a better direction for his life. After many years, he became a Christian and chose not to reenlist. Ian now serves as a Southern Baptist Pastor and has written several books about different issues, and encourages young Southern Baptist church kids not to join the military.

As Christians, we are called to love, not kill. Ian has seen firsthand how the work our military does is not accomplishing any good; it is harming innocent people -- both the foreign nationals and the US soldiers. He is a Southern Baptist pastor now and works to change people’s perspective on the state and how it relates to Jesus and the church.

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Timestamps:

2:50 How Ian got here

•   Didn’t like the life timeline presented to him

  • Career, 2 marriages, retirement, pain, death

  • So, he joined the army

    • Infantry → Green Beret

    • Found Jesus

      • Told Him, “If my unit doesn’t kill a soul this deployment, I will not re-enlist.”

        • They didn’t kill a soul.

      • Went to seminary (for free)

      • Now in full-time ministry

8:50 War

• “What we're doing has nothing to do with what Jesus asked us to do… He didn't ask us, he commanded us to love our neighbor. That includes not killing them, I would suppose, right?” -Craig

• What the military does overseas has nothing to do with Jesus

  • In fact, they command you to not share Him with anyone while you’re deployed

    • So, Ian left a box of sermon tapes with a local contact at the end of one deployment

15:42 Guns

• Passivism

• Craig bought a gun to shoot intruders, but now, only shoots recreationally

  • “That’s not an invitation for anybody to come and give me any trouble. I’ll give you a hug. I’m not gonna shoot you, but I’ll give you a hug.” - Craig

• Ian is a militant pacifist

  • “I'm not going to kick in your door and shoot you, but I might shoot you if you kick mine in.” - Ian

    • Unless you’re just stealing

• Argument: I’m being violent toward my family members if I let someone else attack them

  • “If somebody comes to try and mess with my cats, we're going to have a problem. I'm not gonna shoot you, but we're gonna wrestle.” - Craig

  • You can harm someone without killing them

    • Martial arts

    • Break their arm

    • Stop them from harming others, but do not kill

21:03 The Violence of Government

• Love your neighbor

  • It’s not loving to put somebody bad in charge of them

    • US government is repeatedly guilty of mass murderer

    • Everyone thinks their side is the lesser of two evils

      • They’re both evil.

22:27 Jesus is the Epitome of Everything a Bad Roman Wants to Be

• “When the Messiah shows up and he is nothing like what they are looking for, they totally miss him because they’re looking for majesty and a big white horse and a crown and a sword. And he shows up wearing flip flops and a robe and saying, ‘Love your neighbor.’” -Ian

• 5 Controversies

  • 22:45 1. Jesus forgives and heals a lame man (Mark 2:1-12)

    • Only God has the authority to forgive sins

      • He proved He had the authority by healing

        • If Jesus is God, that means He’s the Messiah

          • If He’s the Messiah, that means He wasn’t there to conquer and give the Jews power

          • He was giving the Kingdom to the lowly

          • His goal was not to glorify the religious leaders

          • American Christians would gladly crucify Him today, just as the Jews did then

  • 26:43 Sidetrack: Do we love our neighbors?

    • We hear that preached all the time, but has it actually clicked?

    • Do even love Jesus?

    •  We love Jesus as if he in the state are equal partners

      • We've lost our first love

    • Church attendance and baptism numbers are low

    • Most pastors are thrilled to have our troops deployed

      •  Ian is a unicorn

  • 28:13 2. Jesus associates with sinners (Mark 2:13-17)

    • Pharisees wonder if a righteous man can do that because he’d get soiled

      • Christians today act the same way

        • Churches rejecting gay people

      • Jesus hung out with

        • Gay people

        • Prostitutes

        • Druggies

    • Where can we hear the Word of God preached without hate?

    • What people do is none of my business. I've been instructed to love 

    • Much of the church outside the Jewish community started out practicing homosexuality as part of their religious life

      • If the church had always blocked out gay people from entering, there would not be a church today

    • Southern Baptist churches would not perform a gay wedding, but they welcome anyone of any lifestyle in the door

      • If they're not allowed in the church to hear the Word, how are they going to find Jesus?

      • The Pharisees kept those people away

        • Their power depended on division

          • They had to make the distinction that they were better than others

          • Very little faith involved

        • Jesus ate with them

          • They heard His message because He saw them

    • Another example: Woman caught in adultery (John 8:1-11)

      • Pharisees test Jesus

        • The Law says to stone her to death

        • Jesus asks whoever has never sinned to throw the first stone

          • They all walk away

        • He tells the lady she’s forgiven and to stop sinning

          • Clean slate

          • Even when we do it again, we get another clean slate and encouragement to try again

          • He forgives every single type of sin

          • Other people’s sins are none of our business

  • 37:30 3. Jesus’ disciples aren’t fasting (Mark 2:18-22)

    • Pharisees point it out so people will see Him as a bad Jew

    • Fasting was a very visible practice

      • Makes one look righteous

    • Jesus says they’re not fasting because He is with them

      • They’ll fast when He leaves

      • We’re in a fast from Jesus, waiting for His return

  • 40:00 4. Keeping the Sabbath (Mark 2:23-28)

    • Pharisees tried to make Jesus look unworthy because He and His followers weren't keeping the Sabbath rules

    • Jesus showed them at the Sabbath is a gift to man, not about rule-following

    • They had taken God's rules and elevated them above God

      • The Sabbath is meant to help us grow closer to God

  • 41:25 5. Doing good on the Sabbath (Mark 3:1-6)

    • Jesus healed the man with the crippled hand

      • Violated the regulations

    • It's always the right time to do good

      • You don't take a Sabbath from doing good

      • It's never time to do wrong

  • Making the world a better place is simple: just love each other

43:27 Churches are empty because we’ve made the state the highest god

• God gets relegated to Sundays and maybe Wednesdays

• Nobody wants to believe in Somebody that we don’t actually believe in

• Faithfulness to God almost always means we won't be faithful to the government

• We essentially have a national church because we back up everything the United States government does

  • People can't see (or won't admit) that everything it does is evil

  • They support the troops

• The five controversies basically boil down to this: Where do you put the state/your governing authority and where do you put God?

45:53 Connection between church and military

• Southern Baptist churches are the number one biggest supporter of the military

  • They believe it honorable to send their kids to fight overseas

  •  Why are they the strongest supporters? 

    • What are they hearing in Sunday School? 

    • What is going wrong with the way we pray and preach?

    • Why do they want to send their kids over to fight people who don't even want to fight us?

• If only Air Force planes dropped Bibles instead of bombs

• Helping kids decide not to join the military

  • Only one Ian talked to still signed up

  • Telling them the statistics of divorces, alcoholism, and infidelity among military spouses

  • Proving that our governments never been right about anything, and killing the people they tell you to won't accomplish anything

    •  Where did we get the right to go into another country and kill people?

51:01 Who are we fighting?

• Afghani villagers came across American troops and thought they must be Russian. They didn't know anything about 9-11 or even where New York was

  • Do the Christians supporting these wars understand that the people in these countries have nothing to do with what we’re supposedly fighting about?

    • We're destroying their land, and they've never even heard of us

  • Our troops traveled around and millions of dollars of equipment with guns pointing in all directions from their tanks

    • The only people around were unarmed villagers wearing flip-flops and simple robes who just wanted to sit around and enjoy life

  • Many suicide bombers were coerced into doing it

    •  Oftentimes, their families were tied up at gunpoint

    • OR They are angry because the Americans killed their family, so they are getting revenge

• God is everywhere in Afghanistan

  •  but will those people ever accept Jesus since He's associated with our country?

  •  Will they ever listen to an evangelist?

57:35 DHS is a terrible part of the government

• Carlos Morales used to work for CPS; now speaks against them

  • Legally Kidnapped book

• Ian’s book about his foster daughter

59:15 Ian’s other books

• Revoked Consent

  • Story about fighting the government and winning

• The Genetic God

  • Story about people finding evidence for God in their DNA

• Train, Deploy, and Report

  • Book on evangelism

27. The Pacifist Case for Gun Rights with Abby Cleckner

Most people wouldn’t include the ideas of pacifism in the same thought as contemplating gun rights, except possibly to concur that those things are opposing ideas on the spectrum of peace. Abby Cleckner does an excellent job of explaining how the two can naturally coexist in the same paradigm.

In this episode, Craig tackles this topic, as well as digging into what defines a human right. The term “right” is tossed around a lot in today’s society, but what truly is a human right? And how can someone who advocates for peace and complete pacifism also advocate for the right to own a gun? Can the same Jesus who says “blessed are the peacemakers”, and commands us to turn the other cheek and to love our neighbor, be the same God who created us with the right to own a weapon that has the ability to bring to fruition the opposite of all those things? Abby addresses this along with other related topics in this episode. 

Timestamps and starting points:

1:18 Is pacifism inaction? 

• blessed are the peacemakers 

• using violence to fight violence, creates more violence

• “peacemaker” is a term of action

• planning for peace: consider peaceful ways to defend your family and yourself

• civil rights activist: trouble makers for peace

• if we believe that we are a part of God’s kingdom then we have to use His methods. 

7:11 Civil Rights Movement: troublemakers for peace 

• Martin Luther King’s letter from jail

• Rosa Parks

• you cannot end violence by increasing the violence in the world

• MLK advocated for a peaceful protest against injustice 

• violence begets violence

• showing love is more important than getting even

11:42 Les Miserables

• French Revolution

• The Law v Grace

19:07 Using Legislation to Correct Behavior

• Why it doesn’t work

• causes collateral damage

• Henry Hazlitt: seen and unseen consequences 

• how does a society get to the point of Nazi Germany

23:30 The Pacifist Case for Gun Rights

• gun control

• Advocating the government to use violence on your behalf is not pacifism

• increases violence

• you become the judge of others motives

• gun control is essentially a “thought crime”

• legality becomes synonymous with morality: war on drugs, prohibition   

37:00 Human Rights are Property Rights

• What defines a human right? 

• Property rights start with self-ownership

• taking our rights seriously is an act of love for others

• respect for others is essential for establishing the kingdom of heaven on earth 

42:02 Stop using political violence against your enemies