106. Jesus Has No Flag with Against All Flags Podcast Team

About this Episode

In this episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, host Craig Harguess welcomes Anthony, Nathan, and Wyatt from the Against All Flags podcast. Together, they navigate the turbulent waters of Christian Anarchy, holding steadfast to the conviction of 'No King but Christ.' The episode reveals the transformative power of a Christcentric anarchist viewpoint, as they share heartfelt stories about moving beyond traditional politics and organized religion, while keeping Jesus's teachings at the forefront.

They address the inner turmoil Christians often experience when their obligations to the state appear to conflict with their spiritual convictions. The discussion delves into the historical stances of the early church on nonviolence and examines how contemporary believers reconcile these seemingly contrary paths. 

Personal anecdotes, biblical reflections on flawed earthly rulers, and the unshakable sovereignty of Jesus are woven throughout the narrative, emphasizing the rallying cry 'No king but Christ.' The societal implications of standing against national symbols, such as the choice to stand or sit during the national anthem, are also tackled. 

Craig and his guests reflect on the journey of their respective podcasts, from inception to a firm dedication to merging Christian insights with issues of political culture. They celebrate the mission to guide listeners towards a deep, nonviolent faith that rejects the entanglements of statism and violence, acknowledging the global Christian community, the reach of podcasts, and inspirations like Stephen Rose from AnarchoChristian.

Connect with our guests:

• Follow their Podcast: Against All Flags

• Nathan

  • Instagram: @against_all_flags_pod

• Anthony 

  • Instagrams: @against_all_flags_boomer

    @beltfed_bandit

•  Wyatt

  •  @wyatt_j_d_

Episode Timestamps:

Timestamps:

01:08 Exploring Anarchy Through Fiction

•  Introduction to Joseph Macolino, inspired by Tolkien and Orwell.

• Creation of the fictional universe Evorath, developed from high school to college.

• Joseph's trilogy explores themes of questioning government authority and discovering Christian principles.

12:35 Spreading Christian Anarchy Through Fiction

• The intersection of fiction and Christian anarchism is highlighted.

• Influence of various texts, maintaining a critical perspective.

• Story arc in fantasy series depicts the transition from monarchy to an anarchist society, paralleling historical movements.

• Aim to challenge preconceptions and promote Christian anarchism through storytelling.

19:59 Discussing Writing, Influence, and Christianity

• Focus on Evorath's world-building, where humans are divinely created.

• Discussion on media influence and personal experiences of non-conformity.

• Importance of writers in highlighting societal propaganda and Christian resistance.

• Emphasis on living according to Jesus' teachings despite potential opposition.

28:22 God Is Strategic

• A personal anecdote about a significant encounter and the concept of divine timing.

• Reflection on the creative process and progress in writing projects.

• Introduction of the 'Bad Woman Project' and a call for support.

• Teaser for the content of upcoming books without giving away specifics.

31:46 Expanding on Book Two Characters

• Insight into Averath's characters, including the villain Yazook Stahl.

• Exploration of shapeshifter species and character development.

• Themes of power, corruption, and societal improvement are examined through character arcs.

39:46 Fantasy Series and Libertarian Ideology

• Introduction of diverse races and characters in the third book.

• Characters question tribal loyalties, leading to the formation of a new community.

• Discussion on societal ideals, comparing the fictional society to voluntarism.

• Upcoming books to delve into the complexities of a society striving for harmony post-trilogy.

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100. Christian Ethics and Stateless Societies: The Anarchist Approach of the Perry Family

In the 100th episode of the podcast, host Craig Harguess is joined by guests Sarah and Jeff Perry from Voluntaryism in Action for a captivating exploration into the confluence of Christian values and the philosophy of anarchy. This milestone episode delves into the nuances of Christian Anarchism and Voluntarism, examining the personal metamorphoses that steer individuals away from traditional political paradigms toward a life of voluntary statelessness underpinned by faith. 

Throughout the episode, Sarah and Jeff Perry share the hurdles encountered in seeking a like-minded community and the challenges a society deeply ingrained with state-oriented ideologies poses. They shed light on the essence of fellowship and kinship, even in the digital sphere, for those who perceive themselves as misfits in a world unprepared for such radical ideas. The conversation also touches on the difficulty of communicating complex ideas over social media and the importance of giving people grace and meeting them where they are, as they were once in a similar position. The group emphasizes that the people they may joke about now were once reflections of their past selves, highlighting the transformative journey that led them to their current ideological stance. 

Taking an unexpected detour, the discussion ventures into the rustic world of homesteading, contrasting the merits of duck and chicken eggs and unpacking the symbolism it holds for Christian anarchists. This segment uncovers the layers of self-reliance and philosophical maturation, accompanied by a narrative of Jeff’s military service and how he underwent a profound ideological shift towards anarchism. 

The episode critically addresses the contentious interpretation of Romans 13 from an anarchist perspective, scrutinizing the alignment—or lack thereof—between modern democratic establishments and the teachings of Jesus. The discourse celebrates the significance of genuine leadership as demonstrated by Jesus, compared to the forceful rule often exhibited by earthly authorities. 

The discussion also spotlights the impactful initiatives of Voluntaryism in Action, emphasizing the human connections nurtured through voluntary charity. This starkly contrasts the impersonal touch of institutionalized aid, underscoring the human and spiritual dimensions of giving.

 Listeners are treated to a blend of humor, social commentary, and personal anecdotes that exemplify the intertwining of Christianity's core tenets with the principles of voluntaryism. As the 100th episode of the podcast, this thought-provoking journey offers an inspiring vision of community, support, and voluntary action shaped by love, grace, understanding, and Christian values.

Connect with the Perrys:

Website

Podcast: Voluntary View on Spotify, iTunes, Youtube

Key Moments:

00:02 Exploring Christian Anarchism and Voluntaryism

• Introduction to the intersection of Christianity and statelessness.

• Personal journeys from conventional politics to stateless existence based on Christian values.

• Importance of community, even if primarily online.

01:11 The Reach of the Bad Roman

• Discussion on the international reach of the podcast.

• Personal reflections on discovering Christian Anarchy.

• Surprise at finding a community with similar beliefs.

09:08 Duck Eggs and Freshly Laid Eggs

• Discussion on homesteading, duck vs. chicken eggs.

• Nutritional content and taste comparison.

• Personal anecdotes about self-sufficiency and philosophical evolution.

15:22 - Military Transition to Anarchism & Non-Judgmental Dialogue

• A former military medical officer's ideological shift towards anarchism.

• Impact of literature and libertarian thought on worldview.

• Emphasis on non-judgmental engagement within the anarchist community.

23:13 Christian Anarchism and the Bad Project

• Craig's journey from neoconservatism to Christian anarchism.

• Misconceptions about Christian Anarchy clarified.

• Sharing personal revelations about faith and statelessness.

26:41 Facebook Thread Drama and Miscommunication

• Addressing miscommunication and drama in a Facebook thread.

• Emphasis on understanding different perspectives within anarchism.

30:05 Understanding Anarchy and Romans 13 (11 Minutes)

• Interpretation of Romans 13 in the context of Christian anarchy.

• Biblical examples of resistance to secular authorities.

• Addressing objections related to submission to governing authorities.

33:57 Not Voting and Complaining About Government

• Discussion on Craig's decision not to vote and its implications.

• The counterintuitive nature of the argument that non-voters cannot complain.

38:41 Voluntarism and Anarchy

• Explanation of voluntarism as a subset of anarchy.

• Voluntarism focuses on voluntary interactions without coercion.

41:22 Religion, Government, and Accountability

• Differences between authority figures and authoritarianism.

• Critique of representative democracy and accountability.

• Reflection on the role of law enforcement and early church teachings.

49:57 Christian Anarchism and Voluntaryism Action

• Exploration of how Voluntaryism in Action embodies Christian Anarchist principles.

• Discussion on the organization's initiatives and community impact.

• Tension between Christianity and statism in church settings.

• Discomfort with nationalistic practices in worship.

• Early Christian teachings versus modern interpretations post-Constantine.

55:42 Voluntaryism

• Origins and evolution of a charitable organization, Voluntaryism in Action.

• Challenges and misconceptions surrounding non-profit work.

• Importance of voluntary giving and the impact of government programs on charity.

57:07 Obtaining & Maintaining 501(c)3 Status

• The process and challenges of obtaining 501(c)3 status for the organization.

• Insights into maintaining non-profit status and its importance.

01:04:18 Voluntaryism in Action

• Celebration of the work and achievements of Voluntaryism in Action.

• Personal anecdotes that underscore the organization's ethos.

01:09:36 Discussion on Voluntaryism in Action

• Impactful work of Voluntaryism in Action aligned with Christian values.

• Encouragement for listener support through donations or involvement.

• Challenges of social media censorship.

01:11:39 Twitter Campaigns and Content Restrictions

• Addressing the impact of content restrictions on social media campaigns.

• The organization's approach to creating and sharing provocative content.

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99. God's Country or Jesus’s Kingdom? Navigating the Nexus of Nationalism and Faith in America

Could the intertwining of faith and state authority be warping the very soul of Christianity? Unlock the complexities of Christian nationalism as we sit down for a round table to dissect the idolatrous juxtaposition of faith and governance. This episode dissects the potential hazards of conflating faith with state authority and how this can distort genuine religious practice and the core tenets of Christianity itself.

Join your host, Craig Harguess, along with friends of the show Chris Polk, Cody Cook, Paul Parayil, and Darren Freidinger, who help us peel back the layers of entanglement to reveal the true call of Faith. Witness a bold examination of Christian nationalism's historical claims and current implications in the realm of politics and social justice. 

As echoes of January 6th reverberate through the national consciousness, we scrutinize its portrayal as a Christian nationalist insurrection and the subsequent impact on political landscapes. The breach, the media's narrative, and the political fallout are dissected with a critical lens, contrasting the motives behind these actions with the broader implications for American society. We confront the seductive pull of cultural identity and the struggle to prioritize important global issues over trivial cultural squabbles. 

Through this dialogue, we strive to foster a deeper understanding of how a desire for a 'Christian nation' impacts both the spiritual body of Christ and our broader societal fabric. With a laid-back yet critical approach, we discuss the importance of curiosity and questioning in religious communities, advocating for meaningful action against social injustices rather than getting lost in cultural distractions. The panel lays out a thought-provoking journey through the contradictions of Christian nationalism, inviting you to reflect, question, and expand your understanding of faith in the public square.

The digital age has transformed the battleground of ideas, and we explore the challenges of engaging in meaningful discourse on social media amid generational technology. As we draw to a close, we advocate for deeper awareness and action, urging listeners not to be sidetracked by fleeting controversies but to remain steadfast in the pursuit of no king but Christ. Tune in for a thought-provoking journey through the contradictions and complexities of Christian nationalism.

Connect with Cody Cook:

• Libertarian Christian Insitute

• Podcast - Cantus Firmus

• Book - What Belongs to Caesar

• Listen to episode 89, Navigating Revivals in Christianity with Cody Cook

Connect with Chris Polk:

• Blue Ribbon Podcast

• Blue Ribbon Logistics

• Tik Tok

• Listen to More Bad Roman Episodes with Chris Polk:

  • Lessons from the Trucking Industry with Chris Polk, EP 77

  • Your Rights with Chris Polk & Jacob Daniel, EP 38

  • Home School: 2021 Year-End Round Table, EP 47

Connect with Paul Parayil:

• Paul Varkey Parayil on Facebook

Key Moments:

01:20 Christian Nationalism and Its Contradictions

• Christianity Today Article: What Is Christian Nationalism?

• Critiqued for distorting religious practice and undermining Christian principles.

• Enforcement of state authority is a key concern.

05:11 Christian Nationalism and the New Covenant

• Inconsistencies with Jesus' teachings are highlighted.

• Cherry-picking from the Old Testament discussed with guest Cody Cook.

15:20 Christian Nationalism and State Role

• Examination of Christian nationalism and its contrast with a kingdom culture mindset.

• Emphasis on the spiritual body of Christ over earthly rulers.

27:52 The Impact of Christian Nationalism

• Growth of the church during persecution discussed.

• Detachment from state affairs, detrimental effects, and pitfalls of striving for a "Christian nation."

33:13 January 6th and Christian Nationalism Discussion

• Discussion on the Capitol breach on January 6th.

• Examination of Christian nationalism, media portrayal, politicians' response, and intentions vs. implications of actions.

43:54 Exploring Christian Nationalism in Politics

• Aftermath of January 6th discussed.

• Accusations of Christian nationalism, manipulation by agencies, spectrum of ideologies, and complex relationship between American and Christian identities.

58:49 Challenges of Social Media Discourse

• Christian nationalism debates on social media.

• Generational gap in technology use, lack of curiosity in education and religion, and strategy for online discourse.

01:08:32 Christian Nationalism and Cultural Identity

• American democracy's defense of Anglo-Protestant culture discussed.

• Exclusion of Catholics and Orthodox believers, trivial cultural controversies distracting from pressing social injustices.

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65. Reclaiming Church with Dan Morrison

About this Episode

Craig is joined by the Rev. Dr. Dan Morrison, Assistant Rector of All Saint Anglican Church in Springfield, Missouri. Dan brings his plethora of experience and knowledge of scripture to the show for a conversation on the original role of the Church and how modern Christianity is living up to the model Jesus set forth over 2,000 years ago. 

Why do Christians seek solutions through political systems of power and fail to remember those are the very systems that murdered our savior? How did we get here, and how can we reclaim Churches for Jesus rather than sell out to the state and its illusions for physical and spiritual freedom? Too often we forget it is Jesus who makes us free, but that freedom is not freedom from suffering, but rather a call towards it. It should be difficult to be a citizen of heaven in a fallen world, but that is when we need to turn to God most.

In divinity school Dan became an expert on the book of Revelations, he shares his expertise and vision for the future of Churches with Craig, as well as some perspective on how we have gotten so off course as Christians. Listeners will leave this episode with a renewed desire to pursue Christ over politics, to not fall trap to the illusions of earthly power, but to instead do what Jesus would do, turn from the earthly kingdoms, and show the world what it means to know the love of God.

Episode Timestamps:

00:35 Shoutout to Amber

01:06 Dan’s Background

• Assistant Rector All Saint Anglican Church in Springfield, MI

• Undergrad in classical applied math

• Ph.D. in Divinity studies

• Roll-tide or Razorbacks?

03:30 Dan’s Sermon 

05:36 Why are Christians seeking solutions through political systems?

• Do christians truly trust God as the ruler of all things?

• Christians are called to suffer in following Jesus

  • We live in a fallen world, the systems of the world ar destined to fall…yet we latch onto them instead of God 

• Fear vs. Jesus

  • the two-party system – voting against vs. for something

• Illusions of changing the system from within

• Joining the military

  • Asses what you are doing and why

    • Don’t lose sight of Christ’s way

• World systems have been allowed to infiltrate the churches

  • Result: churches look more like the world than Christ

11:20 Two Responses to September 11, 2001

• Preach the gospel or kill people out of anger

• Profiling others (only God can judge anyone)

• Christians on the right and left

  • Being a “Christian nation” (are we the good guys?)

    • The deadliness of the United States Empire

  • “Hold my beer”

14:06 Who do we worship at Church? 

• Jesus, Troops, Flags, and Afghanistan

• Romans 13

  • But first: Romans 12

• Killing other Christians (or anyone) for the sake of a geopolitical nation

  • Partisan agendas and scripture

    • Conquest in the old testament – Joshua

    • Can’t pick and choose, must then look at the old testament text about care for the foreigner, ect.

    • It’s all or nothing or in consistency

17:50 The Consistency of Jesus – who will you follow?

• We don’t follow Paul or Joshua, we follow Jesus and his teachings

  • “When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the father”

  • Jesus is who set us free – take that seriously, opt. Out

    • Galatians 5:1 – USA is not who set us free

19:07 The World is Watching – What are you going to do as a Christian?

• The state is going to do what the state is going to do

• We forget who we belong to as Christians

  • Or we just ignore it

• “America” is not even the United States of America (i.e. remember Canada, South America, Central America, and Mexico?)

  • Jerusalem and USA 

    • False belief: God created the USA on purpose to protect Israel

• Paul’s statement of the Israel of God reconciled with Romans 13

  • Romans 13 in light of Romans 12

• Jesus never gives us the power to call done fire from heaven upon anyone

  • If you think that’s what being Christian is about then you don’t get Jesus

• Loving your neighbor and enemy leaves you with no one left to hate

22:33 Romans 13 out of context — the Jump to the White Horse of Revelations 

• Revelation 1

  • God as Jesus Christ ruler of Kings on Earth

• Revelation 4

• Revelation 17

  • Will God rain fire?

  • “John’s 3rd Vision”

    • People with Jesus do nothing but ride in behind him, no one is slayed

  • Destruction of Babylon – Romans 17 Verse 16

    • World Sytems implode on themselves, their failure is baked into their creation before Jesus ever shows up

• We are going to kill people in the name of Jesus does not add up

  • God never tells us to do that

• Nations get stricken down because they have waged war against Christ himself

• Churches – fix yourselves!

• The systems are powered by satan

  • Will we appeal to the empire to feel safe or dare to follow Jesus

• Jezebel – welcome in the imperialism in the church

  • The false hope of political power

• Churches are in bed with the empire

31:38 Difficulty of Finding a Church that has Jesus as the Focus

• Home church?

• Pushback from Dan’s sermon on revelation

35:47 January 6, 2021

• Christians trying to save their earthly king

• Civil Religion

  • People have become enchanted as if by a spell

• Did God stop being ruler? 

• Ruling by proxy, shifting blame to please God

  • Outsourcing sin

• Paul could not have voted Cesar into power

  • Pray for those in authority over us

 43:09 Romans 13 – Paul uses Submit vs. Obey

• David Bentley Hart New Testament Tranaslation original greek

  • Peter: “It is necessary we obey God rather than man”

• Rosa Parks

• Abortion debate and submit or obey

  • Following the constitution

  • Live in a world where abortion is not seen as a choice, not one the government has a say so in

  • Don’t celebrate anything the government does

• With the reversal of Roe v. Wade — what is there left to run on?

• Should Christians be voting?

  • Why are you going to the world systems that caused the death of your savior?

  • Being in bed with the beast vs. suffering under the foot of the beast

51:26 Choose this day (and every day) who you will serve

• Frustration with Christians and a relentless need to follow Jesus 

• The term we translate as Church is also a political term

  • Eclessica – a local gathering of the citizens of God that have come together for a purpose

54:29 Daniel I. Morrison’s Plugs

• Facebook 

• Twitter & Instagram

• Allsaintsspringfeild.org

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64. Is Jesus King? with Ian Minielley

About this Episode

Ian Minielly has written several articles for the Bad Roman and most recently is the author of the book The Genetic God. He is passionate about the church worshiping Jesus without the state and encouraging people to seek first His Kingdom. 

Who is our king? Many people would respond that we don’t have one in America. But Christians do. We have a global King. Our president is the furthest person on Earth from meeting God’s standards for a ruler. We do not meet those standards. No one does but Jesus. He is our King.

Episode Timestamps:

00:20 

• Are you fit to rule over your neighbor or are they fit to rule over you?

• “People wanting to clamor for a new king because they want their team to win, but who exactly is fit to be king?” - Craig

1:52 Inspiration for the article

• Watching football

  • Political ads

• Read Deuteronomy 17

  • Guidelines for a king

  • God’s warns them

    • “Kings are bad, but I know you’ll want one, so here’s how to best do that”

  • When they did get a king, they went against most of the guidelines

    • All presidents swear an oath to the Constitution

      • All presidents break that oath

        • Why are they making new laws if they can’t even keep the ones

          • Legislators should be hired to abolish laws, not add more

• Figured out politicians never do what they promise

  • At age 31

  • Could not continue to be made the fool who believed it would fix things if a certain person was in office

    • When the house, senate, and presidency have all been 1 side, things have still not improved

      • In fact, they’ve had power to do worse things

    • People think they gotta get the right justice into the supreme court

  • People vote out of fear

  • Craig was 43 when he realized politicians don’t help anything

• Double-minded thinking

  • 1 John 2

    • “Do not love anything of the world.”

    • Pastor said that,

      • Ian looked at his wife, 

        • Who tried to avoid eye contact

        • He was obviously about to point out the contradiction

          • In 2 weeks, they were going to have a big 4th of July USA celebration

          • Which is something of the world

13:50 

• II Timothy 3:16

  • All Scripture is useful

    • Random passage in Deuteronomy completely changed Ian’s view on politics

    • Only read it as part of a yearly reading plan

      • But it made him realize that our politicians are not legitimate kings

        • Only Jesus is

14:44 Why do Christians vote?

• They’re indoctrinated to believe that’s their responsibility

• Of course, they’re choosing between the most depraved people in the country

  • Twist Romans 13

• The pulpit has failed

  • Those in pews think they’re supposed to focus on Earthly matters

• The empire is falling

• “Everything the state touches, they screw up. Why in the hell are you going out there and putting more people in power? Why don't you just walk away?” - Craig

  • Right before COVID, many people were starting to realize this

    • So why are people still trusting the state at this point??

  • It’s like we’re in Babylonian captivity

    • Daniel and his friends refused to eat the king’s food

      • Everyone else ate it and fell ill

      • Those 4 men were healthy and strong

    • Most people are choosing to live like Babylonians

      • Doing what’s expected to survive

    • Daniel chose to worship God even when the law said only the king

      • Thrown in the lions’ den, but not consumed

    • Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to bow to the idol

      • Thrown in the furnace, but did not burn

    • We refuse to eat the king’s food

      • We’re spread throughout the country as tiny beacons of light

  • When in Rome…

    • When in the United States, 

      • Act like an American

    • No. We are citizens of the Kingdom

    • “We have subjugated our real identity in Jesus, underneath the identity of a flag in whatever the national government over us is. And so we are a fractured people.” - Ian

  • “Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    • We’re not seen as beacons of light

    • People think we’re nuts

    • We’re going against the grain

    • “I got told the other day that at work. ‘You don't have a reason to complain cuz you don't even vote.’ That's the dumbest thing ever. I said, ‘You don't have a reason to complain. You asked for all of this, you asked for every bit of tyranny that you're getting.’” - Craig

21:55 Ways Christians have been manipulated to vote

• Against godless communism

• Against abortion

• 9/11

  • Craig even tried to join the National Guard

    • But was 4 whole pounds overweight

      • His momma is grateful for those 4 pounds

  • His friend got in

    • As soon as he arrived, they were in a fire fight

  • They wanted to go preach the Gospel

24:32 National (religious?) holidays

• Church service on American holidays

  • Service members stand and applauded for

  • Pledge to the flag

• The state has 100% infiltrated the church

  • Jesus Untangled by Keith Giles

• Ian got saved while in the army

  • The church on base was all about military

  • It’s a miracle he got saved there

    • The mindset was all about going overseas and killing humans

  • He just started reading the Bible

    • Realized everything he believed was wrong

    • He still has worldly thought patterns to break

• Christians vote because

  • They were raised on state worship

  • They’re taught to salute flags and stop when they hear the national anthem

  • That’s what good conservatives/Christians do 

    • If you don’t, you cannot be a good Christian

  • “They don't see how it's counter to our faith to worship the state and ask the state to do all these things.” - Ian

    • Gotta have a big, powerful state

    • Sell weapons to Ukrainians and Saudis so they can kill

      • Because it keeps Americans employed

      • “They got money to go to war, but they can’t feed the poor.” - Tupac

      • Why do people support that??

        • The Russians are image-bearers of God!

      • “The only good those planes might be able to do is if you took all those gun racks and bomb racks off and you put little parachute racks on there and they just dropped Bibles all over the world.” - Ian

      • “The next eight countries in the world don't spend as much on the military as the United States does, yet I'm supposed to think that China's a threat to me.” - Ian 

        • The US government is my enemy

          • China doesn’t steal my money

          • They’re not here right now

          • Muhammad Ali refused the draft, saying “I ain’t got no quarrel with those Vietcong.”

    • In Deut 7, God says you don’t want a king who’s after chariots and war

      • Yet that seems to be what everyone chases after

        • Ron Paul said he would cut the military and got cut from the race

    • He also warned that a king would take 10% of the people’s earnings

      • We sure give our “king” a lot more than that

      • Maybe we were better off under the monarchy

        • The Tea Party was about taxes less than 3%

    • People standing up to the war machine

      • Muhammad Ali

        • Refused the Vietnam draft

      • Laurence M. Vance

        • Written books on the topic

      • Kaepernick

        • Football player took a knee to protest police brutality

  • Now, players who don’t want to salute just stay in the locker room

    • They all used to do that

    • Until the government started buying ads to support the NFL

    • Now, players are expected to display patriotism on the field

    • If you have any influence and you stand against the machine, the government will work to destroy you

    • Some people stopped watching football because of players kneeling during the anthem

    • Just watch the game for the game and ignore the circus around it

      • They want you to focus on that

        • So you shouldn’t

    • There’s tons of army recruitment commercials

38:31 Is there anyone who is fit to be king?

• Israel wanted a king because everyone else had one

  • Made them feel like they had earthly power

• “I think I'm a pretty morally upstanding guy, but make me president, and I'm gonna make people do things they don't want to do.” - Ian

  • “I want to use the power of the state to force them to act how I think a morally upright person should, which is completely not morally upright.” - Ian

• If you want a president who makes war, raises taxes, spends lots of money, purposely keeps the population enslaved in poverty, 

  • That person exists

  • If you don’t want that,

    • Don’t vote

    • Because that’s what you’re going to get no matter what

• Libertarians believe if they had the power, these problems would go away

  • “If you wanted to spread a message of Liberty, then you'd be talking about Jesus.” - Craig

    • Not about getting some guy elected

  • People try to get Craig to run for office

    • Can’t change the mafia from the inside

      • Can only change their hearts with Jesus

40:56 Tell people about Jesus

• They might say He wasn’t real

  • What if He wasn’t?

    • What do we lose by following His teachings?

    • How would the world be different

      • If “Christians” followed Jesus?

    • Christians can’t even envision it

      • Because they’ve been too ingrained with the state

41:40 Seek ye first the Kingdom

• Luke 12

• Jesus is dropping truth bombs

  • A dude interrupts to ask Jesus to tell his brother to share the inheritance

  • Jesus tells the story of the rich fool

    • He had plenty

    • His harvest was huge

    • Rather than share or even sell it, he built bigger barns

      • Needed it all for himself

    • He wanted to eat, drink, and be merry

    • He died. God took his breath

  • Don’t worry about Earthly possessions

    • Seek His Kingdom, and all you need will be provided

    • God knows you need food, clothing, shelter, and security

      • Stop chasing after those 4 things

      • Chase after Him!

      • Everyone’s doing it backwards

      • They live their life and maybe volunteer for VBS once a year

      • “From morning till sunrise or sunset all day long, you pursue the Kingdom.” - Ian

        • Are you talking to people about Jesus?

      • “That stuff is so interesting because He's already said it's gonna be provided and yet, people still worry about it.” - Craig

      • Only Satan could convince us to chase those 4 things

      • Our society’s structure

        • No one likes work

          • They’re upset they’re not at home with their family

        • Husband and wife are both working

          • Send kids off to the free indoctrination camp

          • To learn to become plantation workers

        • Develop heart problems at 60

          • Don’t get retirement benefits

          • Whole life wasted

      • If people would pursue God instead

        • Probably would have smaller house and truck

        • But not regretting living to stuff the pockets of the government

      • It’s hard though, because new trucks are so shiny and cool

47:27 Did God put the president in power?

• If you believe determinism

• But those rulers are handpicked by evil people because they are the most corrupt

  • God wouldn’t pick the most corrupt

  • He can use the most corrupt

    • But He wouldn’t select such bloodthirsty individuals

• Biden was handpicked well in advance and put on the US throne

• God didn’t pick Trump either!!

• God picked Jesus

  • “God has Him ready to be the leader of every single person's life in the entire world.” -Ian

51:32 Isolation

• The Bad Roman lets people know that they're not the only one sitting in church gritting their teeth on national holidays

• Elijah felt isolated

  • Until God let him know about a remnant he had kept 

• People who've given up and left church can know that not all Christians worship the state 

• “Jesus freed us from thinking the way that we think today. He freed us from that; He broke those shackles. But the government is extremely good at getting people to put those shackles back on.” - Ian

  • All they gotta do is make you scared

    • And then offer security

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

63. Universal Salvation with Abby Cleckner, Aree Spivey & Scott Goldman

About this Episode

Three brilliant minds join us on this episode to talk about what made them decide Christian universalism makes the most sense compared to other theologies. They share their personal stories as well as Scriptures to explain why Hell cannot exist, everyone will be together with Jesus in the end, and what that means for our current life here on Earth. These three are Abby Cleckner, Scott Goldman, and Aree Spivey from Failed Kingdoms – the artist of our intro song. Find him on YouTube and Kindle Vella, among other platforms.

God is love. God is just. God is infinitely merciful. God is not willing that any should perish. So, why do most Christians balk at the idea that God doesn’t send people to eternal punishment or obliterate them after death? We’ve been trained in what the correct answers are and never to question what the pastor says. But have you ever even truly thought it through for yourself?

Episode Timestamps:

00:37 Is Universalism Biblical or heretical?

• The main reason for the question

  • Many good Early Church quotes come from universalists

    • Commonly accepted in the church today as a pejorative

      • Even though universalism is rejected

2:50 Abby’s Religious Background

• Grew up typical protestant

  • Went to church on Sundays

    • But it never really meant anything

• Switched to Lutheran and Methodist

  • Moved a lot, so lots of different churches

• Church was a ritual she hated

  • Swore she’d never go as an adult

  • And never make her kids go

• Invited to Evangelical church in high school

  • No one dressed up

  • There were no hymnals

  • They played guitars

  • And it was more about relationship with God than ritual

  • About learning, studying, growing

    • But then in studying, came to stories like God commanding [Saul] to kill every man, woman, and child

      • Shocked that God would command him to kill babies

      • More and more stories like that that didn’t sit right built up

      • Didn’t align with who she knew God to be

      • “Study and ask questions, but not those kinds of questions.” - leaders Abby talked to at church

        • You’re just supposed to accept it and move on

• Listened to podcasts

  • Learned about church history

  • The rich diversity of beliefs

  • Christian universalism

    • What majority of early Christians believed

• Hell

  • “If you take the idea of Hell really seriously, you can never have peace.” - Abby

    • In relationships

      • Felt so guilty

      • Felt a responsibility to save all their souls

        • Hurry, in case they die today

  • “Jesus left paradise to come down and serve the suffering. And so how could He just let people suffer in Hell?” - Abby

  • “...people, I love, if they were in Hell, what would I do to get them out? How much more would God do that for them?” - Abby

7:23 Scott’s Religious Background

• Raised Pentecostcal

• Then Foursquare

• Hell was a big thing 

  • His churches were big on fire and brimstone

  • Got married

    • Then really came to God

    • Had to accept that his wife was headed to Hell

      • When she got saved, it was such a relief

  • Driving around with friends, sharing the love of Jesus

    • One said he wasn’t interested and asked what would happen

      • Well… you could kind of go to Hell

        • “That sounds like a threat”

      • Something in the air wasn’t right

  • Scared for his children’s souls

    • Especially when his oldest became a rebellious teen

    • You hope they get into the Word

      • Become that little worship leader you want them to be

  • Learned about annhilationism

    • Seemed more Scriptural

  • 1 Timothy 4:10

    • “...our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.”

      • This changed everything

  • Started reading Keith Giles 

    • Amazon

    • Latest Bad Roman podcast episode

  • Currently listening to Graces Saves All by David Artman

    • Outlines why everything in the Bible points to universal salvation

  • Would sit in church and worry that those who didn’t go to the altar and repent would die, unsaved, in a car crash on the way home

  • Fear is not a great motivator for Scott;

    • Grace always is

  • And Jesus didn’t go around threatening people

    • He gave them grace

  • Grace doesn’t mean we do what we want

    • It motivates us to do better

  • Fear might motivate some people

    • But it’s not something Jesus ever used

• Inerrancy 

  • Puts more stock in Gospels than Epistles

    • Many believe the entire Bible is God’s Word

    • Jesus is the Word

    • The Gospels are about Jesus

      • Some were written by people who were with him every day

12:42 Ari’s Religious Background

• Grew up in black charismatic churches

  • Preached lots of hellfire

• N-64 trauma

  • He was in middle school

  • His Nintendo 64 his most important possession

  • His game stopped, so he tried blowing on the cartridge

    • Like 40 times

    • Didn’t work

  • Got so desperate he begged God to make it work

    • It still didn’t

  • So he told God, “I hate you”

  • A bit later, pastor preached on blaspheming the Holy Spirit

    • Said saying you hate God is a way to do that

    • So Ari’s sittin there thinking he can never be forgiven

      • Doesn’t matter what he’ll say or do now; his little mistake cost him everything

      • Cried every night begging God to forgive him

• His aunt died young

  • When he was about 6

  • He always wondered if she was in Heaven or Hell

  • She was in her wild 20’s phase

    • Pushed away from church

• In his 20’s, he became agnostic

• Slowly rebuilt his faith from the foundation up

  • Started studying Hell

    • The Fire That Consumes

      • Annhilist

    • Read 1 Cor 15:22

      • Started to wonder and research if everyone will be saved

        • Led to reading about the early church

  • Decided universalism is

    • Most moral

    • Logically consistent

18:38 Craig

• People should read what those from Jesus time - 500 years after understood

  • Polycarp was taught by John, who was taught by Jesus

• Questioned everything since birth

• Started understanding liberty, which led to anarchy

  • What if he was wrong about other things?

    • Even Biblical ideas?

• “If it’s not consistent, I’m done with it.” - Craig

  • How can there be 40,000 denominations?

    • Man did this

      • Maybe they should study the early church to see if they’re really right

        • Or maybe we just need to hold on to our current understandings more loosely

        • Be open to learning and changing

        • If God is infinite, maybe it does take that many denominations to show different parts of Him

        • “We're all on a journey trying to understand this the best that we can. And I'm never gonna be a hundred percent right.” - Abby

        • We’re gonna keep learning for all eternity

• Jesus was a questioner

  • People would get stumped because they came in to fight, not to understand

22:48ish The Western church is a lot like an empire

• Don’t question 

  • If you do, you’re out

• “Jesus was not killed by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion – which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God’s will – from their own.” ~ Barbara Brown Taylor

• When the church came to power under Constantine

  • We served Caesar

  • Dictatorship

• The Western church is more like imperialism than Jesus

  • We’ve settled for Caesar too

  • Psychological similarities

    • With those who buck this idea of universalism

    • Addiction to power

    • COVID vaccine

      • “Do this, or else”

        • You can’t go shopping

        • You can’t go to Heaven

      • Question, and you’re just a conspiracy theorist

      • You’re not smart enough

        • Trust the experts

        • Belittling

    • Augustine

      • Someone asked him what God was doing before creation

        • “Creating Hell for people like you who ask stupid questions”

        • Smart question; had to be belittled to coerce everyone to stick with Augustine as the authority

    • Pastors Say 

      • “That’s just how it is”

      • “That’s what the Bible says, so it’s ok”

26:28 If Jesus said He’s going to save all people, why question whether He means everyone?

• Everyone asks, “What about Hitler?”

  • Just reaffirms idea that some people are more deserving of Heaven than others

    • But their theology says everyone is equally deserving of Hell

    • Everyone is also equally saveable

• If God intends to save everyone, He will

  • He has the power

  • He has the intention

• Romans 3:23

  • People use this verse passionately and frequently

    • But ignore “because of Adam, all die; but all are made alive in Christ.”

  • Proves where your focus is

    • The power of sin

    • Everyone is in sin vs all are alive

    • Lack of faith that God can deliver us all from it

• “People believe all sins can be forgiven except a misunderstanding.” - Abby

  • You can rape and murder

    • As long as you say sorry to Jesus

  • But you can’t be born Muslim or Hindu

    • And follow your religion for your whole life

• God is going to restore creation to its original intent

  • Except this little pocket called Hell

  • It doesn’t make sense for sin to be eternal

  • It doesn’t make sense to restore creation to perfection

    • But have most people – His children – be out of reach

    • “Why would he restore the entire universe except not allow people who didn't have the correct understanding while they were on earth to come into a right relationship with him?” - Abby

  • If God is infinitely merciful, why would He not save everyone?

  • We each have infinite chances

    • With sufficient knowledge of God, of course everyone will turn

33:53 Death is not finite

“Who says God can't still work on your heart after you've left this earth?” - Abby

• Jesus conquered death

  • Yet most people still believe death is final

    • That there’s no coming back from there; it’s your last chance

    • And once you cross that threshold, you’re out of God’s reach

34:41 Free will

• People hold to 

  • Love doesn’t force you to do anything

    • That’s why there has to be a Hell

      • Because we need freedom to choose one or the other

• But God isn’t forcing people to accept Him after death

  • He is simply providing more information

  • Removing the bondage of sin

  • And taking off layers of blinders

  • If it takes someone 3,000 years to choose Him, that’s their choice

    • Though, we’ll be living outside time

  • But everyone will accept Him in the end

36:18 More on death

• Death is a part of life

• It doesn’t last forever

• People attempting suicide (successful and not)

  • Seen Christ in each of them

  • Lost for a time, but not forever

• Death, where is your victory?

• “I'm not gonna feel the pain of this forever. I'm gonna be reunited with the people that I love, regardless of if they had it all figured out here or not.” - Scott ?

37:31 Scriptures for the skeptics

• Eternal damnation doesn’t make any sense, when you read Jesus’ words

• Burning Up song

  • Everyone will be salted with fire

  • Mark 9:49

  • Salt/Gehenna context

• If non-believers get time to come to Jesus after they die, do Christians get time to learn more and improve too?

  • Cuz we’ve all got stuff to work on

  • What happens when Christians die?

    • What if they screwed up right before they died?

• Where do souls go after death before the new Earth?

  • Perhaps we should leave it a mystery

  • Some people have died and been revived

    • Listen to them

  • But the Bible doesn’t explain the process

    • Refining fire

    • Absent from the body; present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8)

      • But I’m present with Him now 

        • He is omnipresent

    • Matter is eternal

      • It’s just been reshaped over and over again

      • Energy never dies

      • Changes form

      • It would make sense that a similar pattern is happening beyond this earth

    • “Jesus loves us regardless. Don't tell a Christian that because it's gonna upset him.” - unknown

      • There’s no hellfire in that message

• Show me where Jesus says if you make a misstep, you’re gonna burn in Hell for eternity

  • He didn’t try to scare people into loving Him

• Hebrews 1:3

  • If Christ is a reflection of the Father

    • What about Old Testament slaughterings?

  • Stop focusing on words from the Bible

    • Putting the Bible over Christ is idolatry

  • “I don't need to read the Bible. I need to read who Christ is.” - Scott

  • Words are all we have to describe God

    • If we succeed, He is too small

    • He sent His son to show us

• Jesus

  • Not politician

  • Not a renowned carpenter or mason

  • He was a nobody

    • Calling Him the Son of God was an insult to Caesar

      • That was Caesar’s title

    • It was given to a Jewish rabbi who was not popular among His own people

      • He was seen as a heretic

      • They wanted to throw Him off a cliff

        • Luke 4:23-30

        • He spoke against their nationalism idol

      • The Kingdom of Heaven is for all people

        • Not just Israel

      • When you’re oppressed, you want your oppressor to be annihilated

      • But God loves Rome

      • Just as much as Israel

        • Fightin words

      • What if we said God loves the Taliban and wants the war to end?

      • The Jews believed that they were the chosen people, and the Messiah was coming just for them

        • Jesus said everyone was equal in the Kingdom

        • The Message is for the entire world

48:40 Christianity’s power

• Not a minority

• Not oppressed

• Still want to be tribalistic and put others out

  • Want our enemies to suffer in Hell

• The people with the true problem are often supposedly believers

  • Sheep and goats

49:45 Post-death purification

• We want to think, “This life is hard. As soon as I die, I’ll go to Heaven and be happy.”

• But we must be salted with fire

  • Scary thought

  • But God is good and loving

    • It will be beneficial

    • It’s all for our restoration and healing

  • It’s a mystery

    • But we know who God is

    • We don’t have to be scared of it

      • Even if it’s hard

  • He is Love

51:46 Quoting Scripture

• “I really do believe that Paul believed that there would be some who would be eternally annihilated, but I also believe that Paul obviously believed that ultimately, everybody would be saved.” - Ari

• The problem is, you show someone one verse

  • They show you another that proves the opposite point

  • The Bible is inconsistent

• Paul said meat sacrificed to idols was ok

  • John said no

• John said you need Jesus and the Law

  • Paul said no Law

• The Bible gives inconsistent eschatology

  • It points to different authors’ beliefs

    • Not necessarily what Jesus said

• Paul vacillated between some being annihilated and all being saved

  • How can you argue when both views are in the Bible?

• There’s obviously human error

  • So we just have to take it and decide what’s most moral and logical

• People will say Scripture cannot really mean one thing because it says the opposite somewhere else

  • Cannot try to reconcile them

  • Just accept that it’s different viewpoints

  • Focus on the main points

• If you find something immoral or inconsistent, reject it

  • God commanding slaughter in the Old Testament

    • Not moral

    • Jesus didn’t do that

• Paul believed like a good Jew that some would be annihilated

  • But then he wrestled with the truth

    • God is gonna save all people

    • Had a revelation

  • A lot of Jews struggled to accept Jesus because they didn’t expect the Messiah to die and resurrect like Christ did

    • Why is it hard to accept that Paul may have changed what he understood to be true?

• Other contradiction

  • Jacob I loved; Esau I hated

  • Vs God shows no partiality

• In Romans, Paul is arguing one side of a case

  • And then the other side

  • He’s of split mind trying to make peace

1:00:22 Repent

• That word is preached to mean turn 180° from your sin

• But it means rethink; change

• Paul started with black and white; good and evil 

  • Christ calls us to think outside that paradigm

• Could say that this is Hell and we are currently being purified

  • And once we get to be with Christ, it’ll be done

  • But Jesus says His Kingdom is here

  • We can see His glory here, in this life

1:01:54 Jesus is a peacemaker

• Parables of lost things

• Lost, found, party

• Sons

  • One squandered his wealth

  • The other stayed home, but never really knew his father

  • The father makes peace with each of them

    • We can’t cast aside our pious brothers with different convictions

    • They can’t hate those of us who have strayed

  • His love never changes for either one

  • The Prodigal God by Tim Keller

• “I need to love these people who are telling me I’m going to Hell.” - Scott

• In Scripture, when Jesus gets mad at Pharisees

  • Maybe He’s full of compassion

  • The word we translate “Fool” or “Hypocrite” could mean “Actor”

    • Human authority isn’t real

      • It’s just actors dressed up in costumes and playing a part

• We are all children of God

  • Creation is longing for us to realize we’re sons and daughters of the Most High

    • Romans 8:19

    • No need to fight

1:04:41 Is the Bible meaningless, then?

• No

• It has deep meaning

• The above explanation of the prodigal son revealed new insights

  • Every time Abby hears that story, she learns something new

• That’s why it has survived empires and centuries

  • It’s not just a how-to guide on getting on God’s good or bad side

  • The stories 

    • Tell us about ourselves as humans

    • Give us something to think about

    • Let us contemplate our relationship with God

• Everyone is searching and discovering

  • Coming to different conclusions

    • Let’s embrace everyone’s journey as equals

• “Loving God with all of your mind is to relentlessly keep questioning and keep trying to figure it out and not be stuck in a spot where you're unwilling to change your mind.” - Craig

• The human capacity to get things wrong is endless

  • People imagine God guiding the authors’ pens as they wrote Scripture

  • Reality is, people were involved

    • People mess up

1:07:54 Biblical cases against universalism

• Conditional immortality

  • Dare We Hope?

    • There are contradictions in Scripture about eschatology

    • Hold these tensions as humbly as we can

      • And not presume that everyone will or won’t be saved

  • Best argument against it

    • That All Shall Be Saved

      • Best argument against Hell

      • If God permits some to be eternally lost, then He is evil

        • Even if He permits them to damn themselves

        • He cannot possibly be purely loving and just

      • Humans do not exist in a vacuum

        • We’re shaped by those around us

        • If one damns itself, others around it might make different choices and end up damned

        • Could lead to the collapse of humanity

          • In the same way, everybody must be saved for anybody to be

  • Libertarian freedom is stupid

  • If God would give us sufficient evidence to see that He is everything we need, everyone would choose Him

    • Annihilationism fails

      • Even though it’s in Scripture

• The Bible is clear on Hell

  • Contradictions

  • More clearly supports universalism

    • Starting with Abraham being a blessing to all nations (Gen 22:18)

• Allegory and truths

  • God is love

    • Read this into other Scriptures

  • Definition of eternal life

    • John 17:3

    • Knowing God

      • Depart from Me; I never knew you

        • You didn’t know My true character

      • Even Paul sometimes did something with the wrong mindset

        • Big trouble for casting out a demon out of annoyance

  • We are loved regardless of our good works

  • Doing good for the sake of doing good

  • Heaven and Hell is often about

    • A reward

    • Avoidance of a punishment

      • Fear-based

      • God did not give us a spirit of fear

    • We should be following God for the benefit of our neighbors as well as ourselves

  • Harmony is loving ourselves and others equally

• What’s the point of Jesus dying on the cross if everyone gets in?

  • The Gospel isn’t our ticket into Heaven

    • It’s that the Kingdom is here

• God is love, but He is also just

  • What is justice?

    • People think of it as prison and death

    • God’s justice is restorative

    • Healing what is lost

      • Bringing us into a right relationship with Him

    • “Justice isn't somebody stealing something and getting their hand cut off; justice is that item being returned.” - Abby

    • When Hitler is restored, he will love those he harmed

      • And they’ll be restored to be able to love him also

  • Restoration doesn’t seem possible based on our experiences

    • But God is moving

• Live your values until people start asking questions

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

62. Love and Substance Abuse - Hope for the Addict with Reckless Saints of Nowhere's Jordan Blake

About this episode

Jordan Blake is the Executive Director and co-founder of The Reckless Saints of Nowhere. He finished his own rehab journey in 2015 and started Reckless Saints with his wife shortly after. They lead a team that destroys barriers for those ready to go through treatment for substance addiction. They go against the status quo to show the love of Jesus to those most of the world finds repugnant. And it works.

No matter who you are, you know someone struggling with addiction — even if you don’t know it. This touches everyone. If it’s not you, it’s your sibling, cousin, teacher, friend, coworker… it's a deadly problem. It needs to be talked about. Shame only keeps people from getting the help they need. Those dealing with it need and deserve our love. If you or someone you know is ready to accept help, go to recklesssaintsofnowhere.com or call (918) 864-2719 to start the process.

Episode Timestamps:

1:35 TJ, Craig’s baby brother

• 36 when he passed

• Had a problem with alcohol

• Died September 2020, after 6 months of lockdown

  • In December, their mom was wishing they’d known about The Reckless Saints of Nowhere before he passed

2:29 Get people to pay attention

• Most people don’t notice problems are happening until it’s affecting them personally

3:20 Jordan’s story

• Not addicted in an expected way for his community

  • Which was meth

• He had a serious accident and major pain at 12-13 years old

  • Perhaps the first Oklahoman to be prescribed Oxycontin

    • Purdue pharma bribed the FDA to say it was non-addictive

      • Looked like the savior for people’s pain

  • His kidney was producing 100+ stones/year

    • One x-ray showed over 40

    • They didn’t want to remove it and stress the other kidney

  • Left the hospital with higher and higher doses of oxy

  • 19 surgeries before 20 years old

    • Including metal insertions

    • All removable organs removed

  • The hospital didn’t want to give a kid morphine

  • Outside the hospital, he wound up on morphine, fentanyl…

    • On the needle

    • Hit a US Marshall in the face with a beer bottle during a bar fight

    • Getting arrested every weekend

    • … all because he was trying to treat his immense pain

  • Forced into treatment at 20

    • By a merciful judge

      • Let him out of 8 years in federal prison if he’d go

    • Went to Teen Challenge and Cape Girardeau in Missouri for 15 months

• At the beginning of Reckless

  • Came out of rehab with no desire to help anyone

    • Wanted to just be left alone and work in a factory

    • Couldn’t even go on vacation because of the number of drugs he had to take to manage his pain

  • His veins were collapsing from too much drug use

  • But everyone in town knew he was a dirtbag and noticed when he went sober

    • People started asking him for help getting sober

      • Told him they were scared of dying but didn’t know what to do to prevent it

      • Crying in the grocery store

        • (a public space with lots of people around! A nightmare for an autistic person)

        • He panicked about that one and tried to talk the guy out of asking him for help

        • He told the dude he didn’t want to do it the popular way because there was only a 4% success rate

        • He said he’d do whatever Jordan told him to

        • The guy detoxed at Jordan’s house and they headed to Teen Challenge in the morning

      • But they wouldn’t let him in without $800-1000 entry fee

      • “I couldn’t get them to understand: If he had $8, it would be up his arm. He doesn’t have $800.” - Jordan

      • When someone who’s addicted says they want treatment, you gotta jump on that moment

      • Not make them come up with almost $1,000 first

      • So Jordan paid for 5 or 6 guys to get in before he ran out of money

      • He gave out his phone number and got like 200 calls for help within a month

      • Going into drug dens trying to talk people into recovery

        • Led to a broken nose

        • Knives pulled on him

        • But also guys choosing treatment

      • So, Reckless started as a treatment financing program

        • But he started dating Vanessa, and she helped him make a nonprofit so volunteers could do some of the work

          • Instead of him working 50 hr/wk and running around the country in between shifts

          • 3 months later, they were married

  • Goal of Reckless: overcome obstacles to treatment

    • Entry fee

    • Transportation

      • Might single-handedly be keeping Greyhound in business

    • Finding a bed

      • Waitlists

      • Vanessa made a network so different organizations can put their availability

    • Support

      • Started a hotline

  • Place about 5-6 people per day in treatment

    • Over 7,000 total

    • Never had to turn anyone away 

13:18 Funds

• Several churches giving $100/month

  • But entry fees are $1,000 per person

  • Drugs are a huge problem in the US

    • Could easily blow through a billion and make a small dent

• Apparel company in the basement

  • Brings in $300-500,000/year

    • All goes to getting people into treatment

• Parents take out 2nd or 3rd mortgages to get their kids into $30,000 programs

15:17 Reckless rehab

• Gathered strategies from different programs that work

• 90% success rate

• Now looked to as industry leader

  • But made a lot of mistakes

  • Fought a lot of battles

  • The first person trying something always faces the most adversity

16:41 Who can help an addict?

• Did TJ not listen to his family because they had never been addicted?

• Addicts know they have a problem

  • But they have to reach a moment of clarity

• You don’t have to experience someone’s pain to acknowledge and help with it

  • But someone who has been addicted can call bullshit and wake a person up

  • The loved ones’ pain is just as real, and can only be felt by them

    • The addict and their family may never understand each other

      • But they can still love each other

20:47 Grim Reaper

• The police department gave Jordan this nickname

  • They arrest someone for drugs

    • Don’t book em right away

      • They either agree to go with Jordan

        • And likely get better

      • Or the cops find them dead within the week

• People don’t call Reckless till they’ve run out of options / hit bottom

  • Only maybe 10-20% of people they try to help accept it

  • That means 8 or 9 / 10 people die or get worse

    • Reckless staff stopped going to all those funerals 

      • It had become all they did

  • He can honestly tell people, “This is the last conversation I’ll get with you. You’re either gonna die or you’re gonna come with me.”

    • The only way he can sleep at night is to tell it to them straight

      • Some have assaulted him for it, but it’s their only chance, so he keeps doing it

        • The truth hurts

24:14 Families of the addicted

• “In the case of your brother, there’s nothing you did wrong. There’s nothing you should have done.” - Jordan

• People don’t want to think their loved one needs help

  • Even after telling a dad that heroin addicts fail 97% of the time to recover on their own

    • The dad said, “Maybe my son will be in the 3%”

    • And got the son a hotel room to stay in

      • Where he died of an overdose

        • “Failure means death.” - Jordan

        • The father was distraught and blaming himself

        • Jordan told him, “Your son died because of your son. And that had nothing to do with you. That was a conscious decision made by him that resulted in his death.”

26:34 Emotions of the addicted

• Huge highs and very low lows

  • On the verge of swinging from the smallest trigger

• Guilt and shame

  • Even when families give love unconditionally, addicts hide

    • TJ chose not to share what he was doing with Craig

      • Even though the love would not have changed

28:09 Vulnerability in sharing personal stories

• “I promise anybody that's listening to this, you know somebody in your life, whether it's a friend or family member, that is struggling with this.” - Craig

• Feel exposed

• Extra nerve-wracking to have been an IV drug user

  • People think you’re gross

    • Categorize you with sex offenders

  • Despised and rejected

  • Jordan thought no one would want to hear from him

    • But the more honest he was, the more people came asking for help

• “There's not a lot of ‘real’ being offered out there right now. And people recognize it. They jump all over it.” - Jordan

• Random advice tidbit: “If you're gonna be successful, surround yourself with people that are never impressed by you. That’s my secret.” - Jordan

  • Abby tells Craig when he’s being stupid

  • Jordan’s wife is not blown away when he designs a new shirt or makes money

  • Just don’t beat men down or they’ll fail then too

32:38 Bringing it back to Christ

• The same way Jordan calls addicts out on their crap, the Bad Roman calls out Christians

  • Been there

  • Understand where they’re coming from

• Jesus healed

  • Offered people a way out

  • Eradicated shame and guilt

  • Offers hope

  • Reckless Saints of Nowhere is doing God’s work!

• Nobody talks about this issue

  • That’s why it’s so important

  • There’s so many voices 

    • So much misinformation

    • So many people trying to make money by offering “recovery”

  • There’s no accountability

  • They can legally 

    • Bring in people who’ve been arrested

    • Get them a job

      • Give them a raise

    • Take the paycheck for a year

    • Let them keep the job at the lower wage

  • Often label themselves as Christian

  • Reckless doesn’t attack them

    • Simply keeps living better

      • Saving money for their clients instead of stealing

    • The cheaters hate them

    • Same as Bad Roman

      • “What you guys do, trying to draw a line between patriotism and evangelicalism in America, is a suicide mission.” - Jordan

      • People have always come to God asking him to support their agenda

      • He flies no man’s flag

      • In 2016, Jordan said it was scary that neither candidate even pretended to fear God

      • Everyone freaked

  • Said he hated Trump

  • And loved Hilary

  • He’s a registered republican

  • “In the American Christianity Bible belt, you don’t fight good vs evil.” - Jordan

  • He told his coworker he understood why women were hesitant to vote for Trump

    • Lover of Hilary!!

  • And all of ^ that ^ is exactly what spurred the start of The Bad Roman Project

    • Christians backing Trump no matter what he said or did

    • “If either one of them feared God, they wouldn't be running to rule over somebody else.” - Craig

40:50 Operating closely with the state without joining them

• It’s necessary if you want to exist and be able to help people 

• Health and Human Services 501c3

• Non-religious organization

  • Being religious cuts off access to people in jail

    • Separation of church and state

      • Can’t court order someone to go to a church-based program

• Run on Gospel principles

• Every client has gone through faith-based program

  • Statistically more successful

    • Can’t argue with that

• Preach everywhere

• Take no money from the state

  • Salvation Army and Red Cross got in trouble doing this

  • The state’s money is so easy to get, most churches do it

    • Grants

    • They wonder why the Gospel is compromised

      • It has to be or they’ll cut off your funding

  • Insidious funds infiltrate and change your organization

• Work with system to get people out of the system

• The IRS pushed back

  • But Reckless is 90% successful

    • Why would they close them?

  • Got to keep their health organization status

    • Keep working in the jails and mental hospitals

      • It’s the sick who need a doctor

  • Ruled that they could keep it, but were cut off from state funding

    • How could they do that to us?

      • Oh, wait. We don’t have any state funding

      • And never will

    • Reckless won, but the government wrote the letter like they lost

44:55 “Christian” logos

• “If you want to honor God with your work, don't put a cross on every pair of shoes you make. Just make a really good pair of shoes.” - Martin Luther, paraphrased

• Jesus Fish

  • A guy asked for a logo design with the fish

    • Jordan asked him why

      • So everyone who sees their sign knows they’re Christian

      • How about treat them with dignity and see if they figure it out?

• “It's an appearance of Christianity, but it's not Christianity.” - Jordan

• “You drive around in Oklahoma, [and] there's a hundred churches in every square block. And yet the city's burning to the ground around it in addiction. These two things can't coexist. If Christ is present, there is freedom.” - Jordan

• Marketing a business as Christian is exclusionary

  • It doesn’t attract non-Christian customers

  • It tells people to stay away if they don’t share your beliefs

• “It's gotta be about Christ and it's gotta be about helping people or what benefit are we getting from it?” - Jordan

48:11 Rebellious?

• “Live a life that gets people asking you questions of why you're living that way.” - Craig

• It used to be that being a Christian meant anarchy was implied

• Acting outside the norm

  • Dragging addicts out of drug dens rather than waiting for them to come

  • Have tattoos

• Not rebels

  • True Christians live a life of submission

• Modern day rebellion

  • “Be a rebel again. Turn off your TV, get married, stay married, start a family. Be present for that family. Think for yourself, teach your kids to think for themselves, buy land, and love your neighbors. Even the ones you disagree with.” - Tim Kennedy

  • It’s now considered rebellion to live basic Christian values

  • The Baptists don’t approve

    • “The gospels [are] not the thing that unites them. They’re not even talked about.” - Jordan

    • If you fall in love with Christ rather than their system of rules and strict beliefs, you will be ostracized

• Attending church

  • Craig doesn’t because he was judging everyone

    • He knew they wouldn’t like the Bad Roman

    • He didn’t want to be that person

    • So, the Bad Roman Discussion Group has Zoom church

  • It’s about community

  • Jordan attends all kinds

    • Mennonite, different Baptist flavors..

    • Also prone to judging

    • Chooses to walk in with Jesus, ready to love His people

    • Extra judgy when churches present their budget

      • Reckless minimizes overhead to reach more people

        • Churches seem to do the opposite

        • “Let’s hire more people”

        • Like 90 pastors on staff, each with a different specialty

      • Craig was at a broken church

        • The denomination brought in someone to heal it

        • He said they had to raise more money

        • A pastor would never stay on that salary

        • Craig never returned or gave money to a church again

59:22 Reformers by nature

• God has given the Bad Roman and Reckless a job

• Not afraid to walk against the status quo

• Martin Luther’s qualms

  • Clergy

  • Budget not going to care for the needy

• America

  • We’ve lost the hurt and needy

    • Church used to take care of them

    • God ordained us to care for orphans and widows

      • James 1:27

      • It wasn’t a suggestion!

      • We gave that job to the state because we didn’t want to do it

  • BUT it is not our job to fix the messed up church

    • That is God’s bride

      • He’s the only one big enough to fix it

    • We can call her out

      • Jordan called out Teen Challenge for partnering with the state

        • They got mad because he’s one of their success stories

        • And therefore cannot speak against them because he is doing well

        • But who else can speak to what they do, if not a graduate?

    • Cannot reform the church from the outside

      • We want to get back to the teachings of Christ

        • That is reformation.

      • Churches are panicking because people are leaving

      • But we’re just rethinking what church really is

        • What does following Jesus look like?

        • Must leave the culture of control and divisiveness to find Him

        • “People are no longer satisfied with an agenda with biased information.” - Jordan

1:03:15 Authenticity

• That’s what’s missing from American society

• We weren’t always afraid of failure

  • The church won’t move because they’re scared of the blowback if they fail

  • People wanting to start ministries have to be counseled

    • When you fail, are you prepared for everyone to see you look stupid?

• The church is now an institution

  • Which is never good

  • Fears information

  • Fears failure

  • All about power and control

1:04:15 Motivation

• Love

  • “I’m telling you the truth because I love you.” - Craig

• It’s not because we love to fight people about this stuff

  • We’re still open to listen

• Love has to be evident in your life

  • So when you speak the truth, it is backed by love

  • It’s not just about your delivery of the words

  • It’s that your lifestyle proves you care

  • When we know someone loves us, they can speak truths

1:06:13 The Reckless Saints of Nowhere name

• Jordan is from Boatman, OK

• The government decided they weren’t big enough

  • Took their township

  • No more post office

  • No more zip code

• Now, the kids go to school in one town and the police come from another 

• People started calling it ‘nowhere’

  • Also dog town

    • People abandoned their dogs there

• Rough, sketchy trailer park area

• Moved back there after rehab

  • Brand new Christian

  • Made all sorts of mistakes

  • But God had his heart fully

  • Spurgeon has a quote 

    • The moment you submit to Christ, you are as much a saint as Peter

  • Churches didn’t like it

    • Didn’t want a tattooed dude who cussed a lot and hung out with drug addicts to claim the same God/religion as their pompous selves

    • He wasn’t even trying to appear perfect

• A bit reckless

  • They do stuff proper people never would

  • They have not yet been made perfect

• Just as much saints as the well-behaved

• And grew up in a non-town known as nowhere

• Actually, an old lady called them that as an insult, and it stuck

• Being ostracized by the churches there forced them to lean hard into Jesus

  • Wouldn’t trade the faith they developed from that

1:09:52 Moved from Nowhere

• Jordan was planning to stay there till he died

  • A deep love for that community

• Snake Invasion

  • One in the back fridge

  • One dropped from a tree by his son

• Accident

  • Pothole

    • Blew bearings out on a motorcycle

      • Popped tire

    • Scraped up his face

      • Road rash

• “I love this town, but it does not love me back”

• Still visit and work their all the time

1:10:55 T-shirts

• All designed by Jordan

  • Except one

• Timmy (the shirt Craig wore for the show) is no longer available

• Jordan was always promising people he’d pay their fees

  • Saying the check is in the mail

  • One time, he promised $10,000 worth

    • And there was not a penny in the bank

    • But God provided

      • Nothing was late

  • Shirts were a way to have funds more regularly

• They’ve grown to have a professional shop in town

  • Run by a friend

    • Addicts help with printing process

• “Every single person that buys. A reckless shirt or donates online – they're as much a part of Reckless as my own beating heart.” - Jordan

  • The money paid for a shirt is directly connected to saving a life

1:14:08

• Reckless works in nearly every state

• “If you're a drug addict in the United States of America, it's either because you want to be, or you've never heard of the reckless saints.” - Jordan

• Chose t-shirts because people actually pay to advertise for you by wearing it

• The team does every part of the process

  • So, if you’re shirt comes a bit late, they’re probably working with a lot of people or traveling a lot

    • It’s a rescue team that happens to also print shirts

• Craig likes to wear his shirt to the gym

• CrossFit donated to Reckless

  • So some of the guys could participate

1:20:14ish Get help

• Get Help Button

• Hotline: 918-864-2719

  • No answer? 

    • Leave a detailed voicemail

• Website

• “We may not be undefeated, but we have never lost a rematch.” - Jordan

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61. Hope of the Kingdom: How God Wins with Jonathan Cannone

About this episode

Jonathan Cannone is a Jesus-follower, writer, homesteader, teacher, and Kingdom worker. He wrote an article for The Bad Roman blog, The Dream of the City to Come: Do You Not Trust God?, about the Kingdom coming, both now and in the unknown future. 

As Christians, we have hope. We are called to live and act peacefully, and doing this in all of our pursuits may help bring about the Kingdom to our own little corner of the world. Those in power now will not win in the end. God wins eternity. We have to remember this and take a long view of time, a God-view of time.

We know Who wins and we are on His side, all that is required of us is to continuously choose to remain on that side and not fall into the ways of this world and the false promises of man-made power and state-sanctioned violence.  We know the rules of our side, Jesus showed us and told us, and it is our job, as Christians to continuously submit to our faith in his message, even when we must sometimes must obey unjust powers in pursuit of Christ.

Take this episode as a message of encouragement: politicians may seem powerful, but Jesus is the true King. As a Christain you are an ambassador for Heaven, don’t forget to act like it!

Episode Timestamps:

4:10 The Dream of the City to Come: Do You Not Trust God?

• Based on a lifelong obsession with the idea that Jesus’ Kingdom is eternal, and everything else is temporary

  • When Jonathan was little, he loved Bible stories about the unchanging Kingdom

  • And he just taught 4 months of adult Sunday school on it

5:41 Handling [professing] Christians who just aren’t getting it

• To see change, we’ve gotta follow Christ

  • He is our King

• Others are still where we were a decade ago

  • Still clinging to hope in the government

• Do we get outwardly frustrated with them or handle them with velvet gloves?

  • Craig explodes and starts talking about Yemen

    • Gets blank stares

      • It may be coming on a little strong

    • But, “People are dying because of our belief in the state as Christians.” - Craig

  • The vast majority of people in the world claim Christianity

    • If they’d stop believing in the state and follow Jesus, the difference would be huge

• “About 10 years ago… I just completely surrendered my life to God and said, ‘You run things; I'm not good at it.’” - Jonathan

  • Before and after that point, people were dropping bread crumbs to get him where he is now

  • Humor and Scripture led him to understand

    • Also, a wise elder who was very excited about the Kingdom and not at all about the state

  • You don’t realize you’re being red-pilled at the time

  • It takes humility and gentleness to break through to doubters

9:05 It’s so obvious

• It’s so much in our faces that it feels like the media is mocking us

• But somehow, the guy next to us still doesn’t get it

• Craig’s coworker commented that they’re trying to get us into another war with Russia/Ukraine

  • So he had to tell him about the war we’re already in Yemen

    • The guy had to understand Trump’s role in it

      • And the lack of corporate media reporting

    • The guy’s eyes kind of glazed over, but his brain wheels were turning

      • Even if it’s unconscious, the seed gets planted

• There’s just so much information to give the normies, it’s hard to know where to start

  • So many different operations and people

    • Henry Kissinger

• People have already made up their minds how to live and will not deviate

  • Even if gas goes up to $8/gal, they’ll still buy it from the same place like they always have

  • We make choices based on what’s cheapest

    • The cost has already been paid somewhere else

  • “We’ve already made up our mind how we’re gonna live, and the narrative fills in the gaps for us so that it makes sense.” - Jonathan

  • The way we live is insane

    • What we do to the earth

    • What we do to third-world countries

    • What we do to ourselves

    • But we tell ourselves stories to help us sleep at night

• So, the goal is to share the Kingdom story

  • Have everyone marinate in it until it is our story

  • It will change people until they look at the way we live and say, “This is insane. Jesus would never do this.”

13:28 What if Jesus was walking around?

• Imagine 2000 years ago, He might have been walking around with His head in His hands lamenting how people were living

  • Perhaps even more so today

  • He’s shaking His head at us collectively and saying, “You’re not getting it.”

  • Does He get frustrated?

    • He saw the multitudes as sheep without a shepherd

      • And felt compassion

      • He didn’t ask why they were stupid or tell them to stop following Him around

    • We ought to follow His example and not be brash

      • Steven from AnarchoChristian is good at this

        • His show feels like Sunday school taught by an expert

16:33 Satan’s kingdom

• If Satan offered the earthly kingdoms to Jesus, that means he owns them

• People always argue, “If we get enough Christians in office, all will be fixed.”

  • No. Who’s behind this kingdom? 

    • Whose kingdom are you claiming to be part of?

      • You cannot serve both

    •  Is the person lying, stealing, destroying, murdering, and enslaving?

      • That’s not anything like what my King does

20:14 Jesus is King

• Even over those who don’t believe in Him

• Why don’t we take it seriously?

  • Americans don’t know what monarchy is like

    • Closest we have is CEOS, oligarchs, and generals

    • But we want a king

      • People talk about presidents like they should be kings

        • “They're not wanting a representative. They're wanting a king to tell their enemy how to live… [but] they end up telling you how to live too.” - Craig

      • “[Trump] would love to sit in your living room and tell you exactly how to live… I've got a King in my house. And guess what? You're a Christian. You've already got a King too.” - Craig

23:52 Prophets in the Church

• Very few Christians can see through the facade of how the world works 

  • They have the gift of prophecy

• Prophets are not well received; they are so tired of trying and not getting anywhere 

• Most have either

  • Shut their mouths or

  • Left the church

• Most Christians are genuine and trying

  • They can only do what they know to do

• So, to start a conversation, we must first find out where they’re at

25:26 Arguing about authority, aka power

• People always want to say that anyone with power got it from God

  • Which means they’re on His side

  • Might = right?

  • The winner of a political race has God’s blessing

• According to the Bible, power is not about winning

  • Jesus says to lose your life in order to find Life

  • Submission 

    • Paul says slaves need to submit to their masters

      • But of course, they do; they’re slaves! 

      • That’s their job

      • It’s like Paul is saying, “You are the one with the authority to live the way that your King shows you to live.” - Jonathan

      • When you voluntarily submit to someone, they don't win.

        • That relationship is broken and should not be that way

        • You're the one with the power

      • "Everybody knows that you’re not supposed to have slaves, but everybody thinks that is great to have kings." - Jonathan

      • It doesn't matter how many bombs they have

        • They don't win

28:31 Handcuffs

• Jesus promised they'll arrest us and bring us before kings

  • And He will fill our mouths with His words

• If you're in handcuffs, let God use you

  • Allow them to treat you poorly

• "[Submission] doesn't mean you're obeying; there's a reason you're in handcuffs." - Craig

  • Rosa Parks didn’t obey their laws

  • The early church likewise acted without violence

    • It changes people's hearts

      • People come to Christ when they see us respond peacefully

• People claim slavery is over

  • But right now is like an Oprah Winfrey moment

    • “YOU get to be a slave and YOU get to be a slave…”

  • We are all enslaved through taxes

• “Why are you going to put 'em back in power? You're complaining about 'em, they're stealing your money. They're taking that money and going and using it to kill people in other countries and kill people in this country. Stop voting. Stop encouraging the beast. Follow Jesus Christ. You say you're a Christian. Let's do it. Let's follow Jesus Christ.” - Craig

32:28 Principalities

•  We don’t need that kind of power

  • Jesus turned down Satan’s offer to worship him in exchange for power over earthly kingdoms

  • He already had the power He needed

    • Worshiping God gives us power

• When we respond with humility, we remind the principalities of who won

33:26 What Jesus saved us from

• American churches focus only on sin and Hell

• He also defeated the principalities who has been holding humans captive

• DEATH

  • We're going to be raised again like Him

  • We’ll have new, glorified bodies

34:41 We don’t have to envy those in power because they’re the losers

• They’re rebellious 

  • Haven’t confessed Jesus as Lord

    • Whoever does so now will be the firstfruits of the new world

• Their power is only transitory

35:30 Freedom

• Comes from Jesus; not the state!

• Don’t fear those who can only kill the body and not the soul

  • If the worst they can do is kill us, and we don’t fear death, we’re free

• It’s a major choice

  • Can you risk facing what the early church did?

    • Crucified and rocks thrown at them and pulled apart and their heads chopped off and drowned and everything set on fire…

• Consequences for those who compromise with the world

  • If you try to ally with the powers here to avoid persecution, you will face judgment from them

  • “You can't skip the consequences; you just have to choose which ones sound worse.” - Jonathan

38:07 Identity in a nation

• If we identify with or pledge our allegiance to a nation or political party or worship their military, we are telling Jesus we don’t want His Kingdom of peace

  • Just like the Israelites asking for a king

    • God told them they were rejecting Him

  • Pushing for earthly political power is rejecting the Kingdom

    • Rejecting the perfect King we already have

      • No stealing or killing

      • Actually does have our best interests at heart

      • Wants us to have fruitful lives without fear

      • “The state wants you to be afraid. That's how they keep their authority.” - Craig

39:53 Allegiance

• Giving your heart promises everything you have

• Pledging your allegiance doesn’t just mean 

  • “I’m glad to be in the club” or

  • “So happy you’re not worse”

  • It means

    • “If you go to war, I'll do whatever you tell me”

    • “My resources and my thoughts are for you”

• If any part of someone’s life is dedicated to the state, they have not surrendered to Jesus

42:05 Negative energy

• The rulers feed off of negative energy

  • Whatever violence or hate you use, it will be amplified and returned to you

  • Beat them by choosing peace

    • Increase their violence by reacting violently

    • Romans 12

      • Love your enemies

      • Feed them if they’re hungry

      • Comes before Romans 13 about respecting authority

      • How much happier and more reasonable are people who are well fed?

44:00 Our home is yet to come

• Hebrews 13:14

• It’s a mystery, and it’s supposed to be

• Let’s live with anticipation rather than trepidation about the unknown future

• Once we get there, we won’t remember the troubles we had leading up to it

• It should be exciting!!

• Let’s look forward to it with childlike wonder

• Just the idea that this troubled world is going away should make us glad

• We’ll see Him as He is

• We’ll be made like Him

• All the nations will come together in this new reality

  • They’ll collectively ask Jesus how to live

    • And go home and beat their swords into plowshares

47:03 For now

• We are the representation of Jesus on Earth

  • Imperfect

    • All we can say is that our lives are being changed by being part of this project to change the world

  • We believe His plan will come to pass

    • It’s inevitable

      • You don’t have to wonder who’s gonna win

• “There’s something coming, and it’s way better than what’s going on right now… and it’s certainly not through the state.” - Craig

• Our family is in every nation, tribe, and tongue on Earth

  • Then our family is being bombed

    • They are also doing the bombing

    • It’s not about good guys and bad guys

      • It’s that any person could be or become our family

• People are watching us for an example of Christ

  • Let’s hope we are not a stumbling block

  • Consistency is a strong statement

    • Not wavering back and forth between Jesus and politicians

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60. God or Government - Who's in Charge of the World? with Pete Rollo of Rival Nations & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

In this episode, Craig and his better podcast half, Abby Cleckner, are joined by Peter Rollo, founder of the website and blog project Rival Nations. Pete shares the history of Rival Nations, why he started it, why he was anonymous for so long, and where the project is headed. 

If you’ve ever questioned if the world of politics, on any side, be it liberal, conservative, anarchist, or libertarian always seems prone to the ways of this world, to violence. This episode looks at why that is, and why we, as Christians are called to a different kingdom, and we must continue to abide by the ways of that Kingdom, the one Jesus showed us, rather than pursue earthly powers.

Too often we find Christians falling into the fallacy that, if we just get more Christians elected into office things will change, and God’s will can be implemented, with the right leaders, but this is the illusion we see Jesus reject time and time again in the Bible. How do we get to this conclusion? By looking at what Jesus has to teach us. In the second half of the episode, Pete breaks down his article, Christians Can’t Be in Government, to show us exactly who is at the forefront of political power (hint: it is not God!).

We see Israel fall when it turns to earthly Kings, and we see Jesus reject the role of Messiah, in an effort to show us God’s way, not Man’s. Rival Nations is a digital archive of Pete’s theological journey, and it all started with seeing Jesus as a political force, not in his pursuit of political power, but, rather, in his rejection of it. Let us know what you think and the comments, or by sharing your thoughts on social media!

Episode Timestamps:

1:46 Pete’s Background

• Public ministry and expressing “radical” viewpoints

4:08 The difficulty of engaging those we disagree with

6:31 Peter’s Political Journey 

• No political ideology or government aligns with Jesus

• Jesus is the alternative to the earthly missions of political movements

• Jesus is political

8:27 Creation of Rival Nations (formerly done anonymously)

• Peter created the website as a tool for himself

11:30 How the Political realization of Jesus transformed Peter’s Theology

• Word Gospel was not a Hebrew word, but a word caesar was using and Jesus co-opted the phrase

• Early church’s focus on Jesus

• Modern church’s alignment with the Roman Catholic church vs. the early church of historic Christianity

• Anabaptist 

16:17 Peter’s Article - Christians Can’t Be in Government

• If you take Jesus seriously, we must abstain from seeking political power

• The myth of “getting more Christians in office will fix things”

• George W. Bush claimed to follow Jesus vs. his actions while in office (war)

• Can a Christian run a secular government, without engaging in violence

• Governments cannot love their enemy the way Jesus calls on us to love ours

• Satan offered Jesus political power and Jesus rejected it

  • Politics pulls us away from God?

  • Satan wants more Christians in office

20:22 Did God create the government (or any government)?

• 1 Samuel 8

• Humanity was given authority over animals and nature - not humanity

• Israel had no king and was supposed to be an example, but they fell into wanting kings

  • Violence always comes from wanting to control others

• The whole power structure has to be turned upside down to follow Jesus

• The notion of “Jesus for President” can never make sense with the current system

27:06 Jesus being tempted with political power and rejecting it

• Jesus avoided term Messiah

  • Had violence in its history

• People kept trying to make him king

• Satan directly tempts him

• Jesus is not going to come back and be violent

  • Why would Jesus change his mind?

• Jesus will not “slay out enemies”

  • Our propensity toward violence drives us to this thinking

• The myth of American Cowboy

  • “Might makes right”

  • Our enormous military power

  33:07 Opt-Out and Follow Jesus

• America is not our nation, Christnation is

• We are ambassadors of the Kingdom of Heaven

• But what about paul using his Roman citizenship?

  • We do what we need to survive practically and leverage situations for our mission for God and further the Gospel

• Accepting Jesus as king of your life is the only citizenship you get to choose to participate in

  • What paul talked about was a rival nation to Rome

38:59 “God puts people in political power”

• Reading Romans 13 without reading Romans 12

• Old vs. New Testament

• 3 Temptations of Jesus

• Is Satan only interested in Jesus worshiping him?

• If we know the temptation, why would we partake in it?

• Does Romans 13 work for Nazi Germany?

  • Then it doesn't work for you and America

44:49 God in the Process of Resorting All Things

• Escetoloy

• Times Theology

• Eternal Torment 

48:10 Connect with Peter and Rival Nations

• Rivalnations.org

Facebook Page, Instagram, Twitter, RSS

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58. The Return of Jesus: Deconstructed with Keith Giles & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

Keith Giles was once a pastor, but then he met Jesus. Now, he’s a theologian spreading the Gospel of love through several podcasts, including Heretic Happy Hour, Second Cup with Keith, and Threads, as well as numerous blog posts, and many books. In this episode of the Bad Roman podcast, Criag is once again joined by our beloved contributor, and Keith Giles fan, Abby Cleckner for a deep dive into the question that titles one of his articles, “What if Jesus isn’t Coming Back”?

The Church’s Christianity isn’t very Christ-like. The way Chrsitians behave is often influenced by their beliefs about the end of time. Keith joins us to talk through a blog post he wrote about the second coming of Christ, which led him to later pen the book called Jesus Unexpected. Jesus never intended for us to live in fear or anxiety, isn’t it time we start acting like Christians again, let’s turn the world on it’s head and be a force of love, peace, and joy once more.

Episode Timestamps:

1:55 Deconstruction

• “I'm trying to get rid of some of the toxic teachings that I was receiving while I was in church.” - Craig

• It’s hard to release things you hear every Sunday

• Christians focus on Jesus coming back in our lifetime

  • Head in the clouds

  • Not following Jesus’ instructions; just waiting

  • It’s such a distraction from our mission

• Jesus Unexpected – an expanded version of old blog post

• So many shows and books about when Jesus is coming

  • “We're closer now than we've ever been before”

  • Predictions and countdowns

• Counterproductive

  • Causes people to twiddle thumbs and wait for Him rather than solving problems

6:10 Research revelations

• No one thought like this until 1830

  • The Early Church didn’t sit around waiting for Jesus

  • John Nelson Darby came out with rapture theology

• Now, we have the basic outline of the end times story repeated in media

  • Charming antiChrist

  • A peace treaty with Israel

  • Temple rebuilt

    • Daily sacrifice reinstated

  • Treaty broken

    • Daily sacrifice undone

    • AntiChrist declares themself to be God

      • Puts Christians in concentration camps for refusing the 666 symbol

  • Jesus shows up and kicks ass

  • New Jerusalem comes down

• The Great Disappointment

  • Everyone sold their property and went up to the mountain to wait for Jesus

  • Nothing happened.

  • Seventh-Day Adventists stem from this group

• “We assume that that version of the end times rapture that I just described was something handed to us by the apostles, but it isn't right.” - Keith

• Keith's rebuttal to Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory

9:38 Craig waiting for Jesus

• Working in newspaper printing

  • Would end up reading the paper as he worked to see if there were any signs of end times in the headlines

  • He was a Baptist, and some of his co-workers were Church of Christ

    • They had never heard of the rapture

      • Craig tried to tell them it was in the Bible that people would disappear and leave their clothes in a pile

11:15 The trauma of Left Behind

• Keith

  • Would wake up at 2 am and check if his parents had been raptured without him

    • Some of his grown clients still do this

      • One guy came home to a pot of boiling water and a half-finished coloring page

      • His wife and daughter had run outside to catch the neighbor’s dog

      • But for a couple of minutes, he was convinced he had been left behind

• So much fear

  • It's not healthy for the church

  • They terrified us as kids about eternal conscious torture

  • We lived in terror that our loved ones who didn't accept Jesus were going to Hell or would be left behind to deal with the Antichrist

  • God did not give us a spirit of fear (2 Timothy 1:7)

15:39 We can anticipate Christ’s return

• Just not any minute now

• We must continue loving our neighbor and following Christ’s commands

• When it happens, it happens

• People only predict it to make money

  • When they do and are wrong every time, it does not affect their credibility

    • They sell millions of copies of their books each time they make a new prediction

    • “Christians have this insatiable appetite. Revelation is the most confusing book in the Bible. Anyone that shows up and says, ‘Oh, I figured it out. I cracked the code. I know what it means. Everybody come to my conference, read my book, and go sign up for my video series. I'll explain the entire thing to you and I'll tell you what's going to happen.’ And we eat it up. People are desperate to know the future.” - Keith

  • When Jesus returns, people look forward to being right

18:17 Pharisitical mindset

• The Pharisees missed Jesus because they were looking for a vindicator

• Christians hope for the same: that He’ll destroy everyone who disagrees with them

  • And have a kingdom without the wrong people

• It’s like people think Jesus did it wrong the first time

  • He’s gonna come back and fix it, and we just have to wait

  • When horrible things happen, people are glad He’s coming back to stop it

    • “If you know horrible things are happening in the world, we're here right now to be addressing those issues.” -Abby

21:39 Is it really about the end of the world?

• Romans 8:19

  • Creation is not groaning for the second coming of Jesus, but for the sons of God to be revealed

    • That’s us

• So many prophecies throughout the Bible are thought to be about the end of the world

  • The end of the age is not the end of the world; just the Jewish age

    • The temple and daily sacrifice ended

    • Hyperbole was used, just as it was in Old Testament prophecies

      • Jesus quoted Old Testament prophets because they were familiar to those present

31:10 Coasting

• People are worried

  • They’re waiting for the end of the world

    • The end of all that is bad

33:42 John 14

• Jesus said:

  • I go to prepare a place for you, and I will come back to bring you there (vs 3)

  • The Father is in me and I am in you (vs 20)

    • So we are already where He is; He is already here

      • He cannot return when He is here

      • “If heaven is where Christ is and where God is, then Heaven is… in your body, in your heart, in your spirit, because that's where Christ and the Father dwell right now.” - Keith

      • Christ has prepared a place, and that place is in us

34:37 New Covenant

• Acts 2:16

  • The Spirit of God was poured out on every type of person

• Paul describes us as the incarnation of Christ

• Controversial statement: “There is more of Christ in the world right now than there was 2000 years ago.” - Keith

• Christ died; all died

• Christ was raised to the Father’s right hand; that is where we dwell

• Every time someone chooses Christ, a bit more of Him comes into the world

• Whenever “the coming of Christ” is in the New Testament, it is the Greek word, ‘Perusia’ which means ‘presence’

• Christ in you, the hope of glory

• “What all creation is groaning for is for Christians to wake up and realize that Christ is already in them.” - Keith

• “Christ in us is going, ‘When are you going to wake up and realize who you are?’” -Keith

38:06 Movie metaphor

• Waiting for His return is like buying a ticket to a major blockbuster

  • It’s got dragons, hailstones, Jesus coming out of the sky with a sword tongue…

  • Bought tickets, sat in the theater, watched the trailer… repeatedly

• Rapture puts butts in church seats like a movie trailer puts people in the theater

• Reality is more like Jesus waking you up and handing you a lightsaber

  • We get to participate, not just watch a movie

    • Way more exciting

    • We can look for where He is showing up in our everyday lives

      • “[The Kingdom] is already here, and we can see it.” - Abby

43:07 Jesus Unarmed

• We are to be non-violent because that’s what God is like

  • He wants us to bring the Kingdom by doing things in a way that doesn’t make sense to the world

  • We’re not doing it just to be doormats or get our butts kicked

    • We’re showing the world who God is

  • God tells the Pharisees if Abraham was their father, they’d act like him

  • God lets it rain on the just and the unjust

    • Total contradiction to what Moses said

      • Moses: if you love God, you will have abundance, but if you curse Him, you will have drought

      • Correcting misunderstandings about who God is

      • John says Jesus came to make the Father known to us

        • Why would He need to be made known unless people didn’t know Him?

      • Jesus didn’t affirm everything Moses said

      • People know Jesus wasn’t what the Pharisees expected, but they don’t grasp how radical and different He was

50:17 Flat Bible Theory

• Christians give every verse equal weight

  • Jesus really did change things

    • We must reinterpret Old Testament through Him

  • Verses, where God commands war and those where Jesus, speaks peace cannot have the same weight because they are in direct conflict

    • Otherwise, people come out saying, “Sometimes, violence is good; sometimes, it’s not,” when it never is

• Transfiguration (Matthew 17)

  • Disciples wanted to build equal shelters for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah

    • God took back the Old Testament guys

    • “This is my Son. Listen to Him.”

• Every knee bows

  • Including Moses and the prophets

• Most of us already give some verses more weight than others

  • Ones we don’t understand or seem irrelevant

  • Why not do it purposefully and strategically?

• The Bible was written by men, not God

  • Humans make mistakes

• There’s a lot of historical and cultural context that we ignore

55:27 Our foundation

• Is not the Bible

  • The Bible says it is Jesus

  • He is Truth

  • We are not to elevate the Book above Him

  • Christ will change the world, not the Bible itself

57:31 Civil resistance

• Nonviolent campaigns have been almost twice as successful as violent insurrections

• The options are not only to do nothing or blow someone’s brains out

  • There is also active peacemaking

• “God isn't giving us a mission that's going to fail, that just results in all Christians being wiped out.” - Abby

• Erica Chenoweth video 

• The definition of insanity is doing what’s always been done and expecting new results

  • Jesus is offering something else to do

    • Try loving your enemies for a change

• Pray the Devil Back to Hell

  • Moms in Liberia peacefully overthrew the dictator and ended the war their children were fighting in 

• Fighting over blueberries

  • We gotta stop conflict or we’ll destroy things without remembering why we started fighting

  • We don’t want to hurt each other just because one of us stole his brother’s blueberry

• Nonviolence stops fights instantly

  • It disarms the attacker as soon as they hit you

  • So it doesn’t escalate out of proportion

• “I could use violence to physically stop someone from hurting me, but it doesn't change their heart so they no longer want to hurt. Which is what meeting them with love actually does.” -Abby

• So many people on death row are forgiven by the victim’s family

  • Amish school shooting

    • The shooter’s mom now cares for a child he shot

• There are many happy, lovey stories

  • But let’s be honest

    • You could wind up dead

      • Exhibit A: Jesus Christ

    • That’s why Jesus said, “Take up your cross and follow me” (Mark 8:34)

  • Here’s the thing

    • You’re going to die at some point

      • Do you want to die living like Jesus?

      • What better way to go than loving your enemy?

    • “I'm going to respond in love to everybody and hey, if it works great, I get to do it again tomorrow.” - Keith

1:08:56 Introducing people to Jesus

• People focusing on the wrath of God do not draw near to Him

• Evangelicals are statistically the most in favor of war, torture, and the death penalty

  • There seems to be something destructive making those who claim to follow Jesus more vicious than those who don’t

• It’s hard to teach someone something they think they already know

• Other things get elevated above Jesus and block people from Him

  • The Bible, the government…

• People use the word “Christian” improperly

  • They should try saying “Christ-like” and see if they still think it makes sense

  • When someone is feeling righteous, ask: where is Jesus in that?

  • America is a Christian nation

    • Oh, really? Let’s write down all the Christian things we’ve done, starting from the beginning

• “We talk about what we believe, but no one has done the work to really dig down and see: Is what I believe based on Jesus?” - Keith

  • People have beliefs about immigration, and the Middle East… but where did they come from? What do they have to do with Jesus? 

    • Usually, nothing

• Before Constantine

  • You knew your neighbor was Christian by their love

• Constantine said you can do horrible things as a Christian as long as you believe certain doctrines

  • Put a Bible verse on your weapons; that makes it okay

  • Soldier prayer circles before a battle

    • Asking Jesus to help them kill people

• Deconstruction

  • “The deconstruction movement is the revival that evangelicals are looking for, but they're not recognizing.” - Abby (from a meme she saw)

  • It’s really people saying, “If we follow Christ, it shouldn’t be about hatred, tribalism, and fear; we should be Christ-like.”

  • We just want to get back to early Christianity

    • Before it was all about who you hate

  • Christian musician declaring war on deconstruction

    • Because people are afraid it’s leading Christians away from Christ

      • It’s actually people looking for Christ

    • They won’t take the time to understand what it means

      • It’s just not upholding their beliefs, so they panic

1:18:15 Don’t send hate mail

• WE LOVE THE BIBLE!!

  • We just love Jesus more

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