99. God's Country or Jesus’s Kingdom? Navigating the Nexus of Nationalism and Faith in America

Could the intertwining of faith and state authority be warping the very soul of Christianity? Unlock the complexities of Christian nationalism as we sit down for a round table to dissect the idolatrous juxtaposition of faith and governance. This episode dissects the potential hazards of conflating faith with state authority and how this can distort genuine religious practice and the core tenets of Christianity itself.

Join your host, Craig Harguess, along with friends of the show Chris Polk, Cody Cook, Paul Parayil, and Darren Freidinger, who help us peel back the layers of entanglement to reveal the true call of Faith. Witness a bold examination of Christian nationalism's historical claims and current implications in the realm of politics and social justice. 

As echoes of January 6th reverberate through the national consciousness, we scrutinize its portrayal as a Christian nationalist insurrection and the subsequent impact on political landscapes. The breach, the media's narrative, and the political fallout are dissected with a critical lens, contrasting the motives behind these actions with the broader implications for American society. We confront the seductive pull of cultural identity and the struggle to prioritize important global issues over trivial cultural squabbles. 

Through this dialogue, we strive to foster a deeper understanding of how a desire for a 'Christian nation' impacts both the spiritual body of Christ and our broader societal fabric. With a laid-back yet critical approach, we discuss the importance of curiosity and questioning in religious communities, advocating for meaningful action against social injustices rather than getting lost in cultural distractions. The panel lays out a thought-provoking journey through the contradictions of Christian nationalism, inviting you to reflect, question, and expand your understanding of faith in the public square.

The digital age has transformed the battleground of ideas, and we explore the challenges of engaging in meaningful discourse on social media amid generational technology. As we draw to a close, we advocate for deeper awareness and action, urging listeners not to be sidetracked by fleeting controversies but to remain steadfast in the pursuit of no king but Christ. Tune in for a thought-provoking journey through the contradictions and complexities of Christian nationalism.

Connect with Cody Cook:

• Libertarian Christian Insitute

• Podcast - Cantus Firmus

• Book - What Belongs to Caesar

• Listen to episode 89, Navigating Revivals in Christianity with Cody Cook

Connect with Chris Polk:

• Blue Ribbon Podcast

• Blue Ribbon Logistics

• Tik Tok

• Listen to More Bad Roman Episodes with Chris Polk:

  • Lessons from the Trucking Industry with Chris Polk, EP 77

  • Your Rights with Chris Polk & Jacob Daniel, EP 38

  • Home School: 2021 Year-End Round Table, EP 47

Connect with Paul Parayil:

• Paul Varkey Parayil on Facebook

Key Moments:

01:20 Christian Nationalism and Its Contradictions

• Christianity Today Article: What Is Christian Nationalism?

• Critiqued for distorting religious practice and undermining Christian principles.

• Enforcement of state authority is a key concern.

05:11 Christian Nationalism and the New Covenant

• Inconsistencies with Jesus' teachings are highlighted.

• Cherry-picking from the Old Testament discussed with guest Cody Cook.

15:20 Christian Nationalism and State Role

• Examination of Christian nationalism and its contrast with a kingdom culture mindset.

• Emphasis on the spiritual body of Christ over earthly rulers.

27:52 The Impact of Christian Nationalism

• Growth of the church during persecution discussed.

• Detachment from state affairs, detrimental effects, and pitfalls of striving for a "Christian nation."

33:13 January 6th and Christian Nationalism Discussion

• Discussion on the Capitol breach on January 6th.

• Examination of Christian nationalism, media portrayal, politicians' response, and intentions vs. implications of actions.

43:54 Exploring Christian Nationalism in Politics

• Aftermath of January 6th discussed.

• Accusations of Christian nationalism, manipulation by agencies, spectrum of ideologies, and complex relationship between American and Christian identities.

58:49 Challenges of Social Media Discourse

• Christian nationalism debates on social media.

• Generational gap in technology use, lack of curiosity in education and religion, and strategy for online discourse.

01:08:32 Christian Nationalism and Cultural Identity

• American democracy's defense of Anglo-Protestant culture discussed.

• Exclusion of Catholics and Orthodox believers, trivial cultural controversies distracting from pressing social injustices.

Explore Related Episodes Below:

EXPLORE RELATED BLOG POSTS:

From Soldier to Peacemaker: A Veteran's Journey Towards Faith and Justice with Joe Chadburn

About this Episode

Welcome to another episode of the Bad Roman podcast, where we examine the line between faith and statecraft. Join your host Craig Harguess to welcome well-decorated and honorably discharged US Marine Corps veteran Joe Chadburn, who has traversed the path from violence to peace, and uses the power of Christ as his compass. Together, we unpack the transformation of a bullied kid into a soldier, and how the teachings of Jesus Christ are brought about a sea-change in his perceptions.

In a society often marred by violence, Joe exemplifies the peaceful path, highlighting the power of 'no' as a guide. Together, we'll dissect the peaceful principles inherent in Jesus Christ's teachings and how the early church embraced these values. As we dive into Christianity, our discussion aims to refresh your perspective on its doctrines.

We investigate the propaganda that surrounds the US military, the churches’ direct role in perpetuating the cycle, and the misuse of tax dollars funneled into militarization. We reflect upon the legacy of General Smithly D Butler and the impact of grassroots efforts to protest against racial injustice. The military-industrial complex, the biggest polluter on Earth, is scrutinized - unveiling the significance of comprehending Jesus' teachings to prevent more human suffering.

We're not afraid to point out the privilege of the United States and its part in global injustice. The atrocities in Yemen and the complicity of the US government come under our lens, revealing a lack of media coverage and accountability. Hear from our guest as he expresses his frustrations with the multi-tiered justice system and the influence of corporate media in manipulating narratives.

We wrap up on an optimistic note, exploring the power of storytelling, human connection, and technology in addressing global injustice and promoting peace. Join us on this enlightening journey, and let's reimagine our world together.

Joe Chadburn

Website: International Peace Network

Email: peacedaddyjoe@gmail.com

Podcast: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Youtube

Joe’s Article: War is a Racket

Episode Timestamps:

01:20 Christians in the State (12 Minutes)

• No King but Christ Network

• The article he wrote called 'War is a Racket Racket

03:11 Who is Joe Chadburn

• Early childhood tragedies and bullying

• Relationship to violence as a youth

• Journey to becoming a decorated US Marine Corps Veteran

• Journey to Jesus 

• Political propganda of venterans 

11:04 Joe’s Military Service

• Anti-war efforts from those who have served

15:03 Joe’s Article - War is a Racket from International Peace Network

• Contentious objectors

• Connection to walking with Jesus

• Stereotypes and real-world relationships

•  Double standards of USA military imperialism throughout the world

• Bullying

• “How dare these people put their countries by our military bases”

• Business of war - supply and demand

22:31 Critiquing the US Military and Propaganda

• Politicians exploitation of young people 

• Military demonstrations at sporting events

• Military flyovers in football games

• Colin Kaepernick

• Grassroots peace movement

• Major General Smedley Butler

• From hero to disgruntled capitalist pawn

• The fallacy of “nation-building”

• US Military recruiting trends

29:55 Collusion of American Churches and the Military

• how the church in the United States has perpetuated and normalized war propaganda in direct contradiction to Jesus' teachings 

• importance of a proper hermeneutic to understanding Jesus' teachings and the significance of understanding the wars and rumors of wars that Jesus was prophesying about 

• Challenging the idea that war is inevitable, and highlighting the power of cruciform love in Jesus' example.

• how the military-industrial complex is the biggest polluter on Earth and how we must take Jesus' teachings seriously to prevent more people from suffering

• Meaning of peace – not the absence of conflict

• Do we believe God failed?

• If you wouldn’t do it yourself, why do you want your tax dollars going toward it?

• War is the language of idiots

42:18 American Privilege and Global Injustice 

• how debates about American politics can obscure deeper concerns about global injustice

• The greatest generation should be the one with the most peace

• US government's use of Nazi war criminals and the bank's funding of Hitler

• need to recognize the privilege of the United States and to advocate for those who are suffering due to US policy

44:14 - Media Distraction, Global Atrocities, and American Privilege

• Yemen

• Frustration with the multi-tiered justice system and the ease with which people are distracted by insignificant topics 

• Need to pay attention to the deeper stories behind wars and the influence of corporate media in controlling the narrative

• Importance of seeking news from a wide range of sources to gain a broader perspective on current events 

• Don’t forget joy in the face of negativity

• The grace of God

54:16 - Promoting Peace and Friendship Overseas

• Power of technology to tell stories of oppression and the importance of making meaningful connections with people who don't look or think like you 

• consequences of the US ticking people off around the world and how peace can be achieved by being a peacemaker and a lover of humanity

• Power in the grace of god 

56:56 How saying 'No' to military propaganda, recruiters, and politicians can bring about world peace

• Share with others what is going on

59:50 Continue the conversation

• International Peace Network

• peacedaddyjoe@gmail.com

• No King but Christ Network

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

78. The Role of Propaganda in Abusive Relationships with Derek Kreider

About this Episode

Derek Kreider, host of pacifist podcast “The Fourth Way,” joins Craig for a discussion on his latest season about propaganda. What is propaganda? Who propagandizes? And what benefits do they receive from doing so? From personal relationships, church institutions and the state, propaganda plays a part in how people organise themselves and Derek and Craig discuss them all.

The conversation starts with institutionalised abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention and how poorly churches deal with allegations of sexual abuse. Every year allegations of sexual misconduct are the church’s biggest problem. Even higher-ups who are not abusers are incentivized to cover up for underlings abusing their authority to keep the money flowing. We also learn that propaganda is not just what is communicated, but also includes leaving out important information, in this case to avoid “tarnishing God’s reputation” or other reasonable-sounding excuses.

Next, they discuss state propaganda. The state is basically an abuser who feels the need to control through the usual methods: charisma, controlling the flow of information and if these things fail then resorting to violence. Finally, Craig gets vulnerable about his abusive second marriage, the isolation and altercations, ending the episode with a note of hope for those who believe they are stuck in a situation of domestic violence: it is possible to escape.

Find Blue Ribbon Logistics: 

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Spotify

Episode Timestamps:

3:08 - Who is Derek Kreider?

• Raised conservative with Christian education

• Likes apologetics

• Currently in Romania as a missionary

4:22 – What is causing the rise in atheism? 

• Institutionalising religion ruins it

• There’s a lot of people leaving the church in America, but it’s the institutions they are leaving

• Church could also be people gathered in Jesus’ name

9:19 – The Fourth Way Podcast

• 2016 and the election of Donald Trump made Derek want to start a podcast

• The ends don’t justify the means, but the evangelical community tried to justify Trump’s actions

• Consequentialism

• Watched a video on pacifism

• Pacifism works better than grasping for power in the political realm

• Made the podcast to explore his own Christian reasoning

• The name comes from Walter Wink’s “The Third Way” but Pacifism is a fourth way, not fight, flight or freeze, but being active in pacifism

• Families who allow their loved ones killers live on death row rather than have them killed have changed those people

• Pacifism requires a whole lot more creativity to solve problems

• It brings the humanity back to the killer 

• There is nothing in the writings of the early church that indicate they were not pacifists

20:06 – What’s happening with the Southern Baptists?

• Recently it has come to light that some of their prominent leaders have abused people and other leaders have covered it up

• Then asked others to be silent about it

• Rachael Denhollander – What is a Girl Worth?

• Famous for coming forward after being abused by a doctor

• Talks about how terrible the church was at dealing with that

• Became an advocate for abuse within the Southern Baptist Church

• Although it’s not specific to the Southern Baptist Church

• Sexual allegations are the biggest problems for church every year

• When people take advantage of their positions of authority it doesn’t look like Jesus

• There should not be flawed human beings being given power in the church

• “It shall not be so among you”

• Individuals must take personal responsibility for their actions

• A lot of times power ends up corrupting people

• The Southern Baptist Convention also had leadership that covered up abuse

• In order to keep their own power

• So they don’t loose funding or control

• Do it in the name of Jesus – don’t want Him to look bad

• This is simple consequentialism

• After studying conspiracies for a year Derek thinks lots of people can hide a conspiracy

• This is not a uniquely church thing, people are corrupt

• A new structure would be full of people doing the same thing

• Maybe people are pulling back from the church because it looks just like government politics

• Sometimes members of churches solely blame individuals for problems that may be systemic

• Pastors are celebrities not shepherds, leading to people abusing power

35:09 – Propaganda, the state and abusers

• Politicians are going to go wherever the funding comes from

• This is a structural problem

• Propaganda is 100% intentional

• But its often done by people who are sincere about their cause

• A jerk on a power trip is easier to disbelieve

• Everyone propagandises

• Derek educates his kids therefore by some definitions he propagandises them

• We use the word for education that we don’t like

• In the Southern Baptists the higher-ups silence the news media that’s also propaganda

• Because it shapes your understanding

• The higher-ups say they prefer to highlight the good and leave out the bad

• It’s propaganda to leave information out

• Its an intricate web of self-justification and gaslighting

• Trump was worse on the second amendment than Obama

• Jacques Ellul – Propaganda and The Technological Society

• Propaganda produces extreme polarization

• And other quotes that could have been written yesterday

• Propaganda seeks to isolate individuals

• Repeats simple content

• Creates a problem to resolve then offers itself as a saviour

• Abusers do the same thing

• Craig’s second marriage was abusive like this

• Derek’s episode about marital abuse: Propaganda and Domestic Abusers

• You can escape an abusive relationship and God won’t be offended

• Things escalate when the abuser feels like they are out of control

• Craig’s second wife threw knives and had him arrested

• Then moved in next door when he left

• Its different in every situation

• David Graber – The Dawn of Everything

• Talks about how the state functions

• The state is basically an abuser who needs control

• Violence is risky but effective if you are stronger

• Information can also be used to control

• Charisma can be used to control others, this is the most effective

• States work like this too, when charisma (stories) stops working then they try manipulation then violence

• Abusers isolate their victims

1:00:21 – The conspiracy of corporatism

• How do we discern truth and how are beliefs formed?

• How was propaganda implemented?

• A 70 episode series on propaganda could have been much larger

• Corporations and businesses propaganda

• How do they do it?

• What effect does it have?

• What should you look out for?

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

48. Meeting People Where They Are with Justin Cornett of For All Tennessee

In this episode, we take the podcast in a bit of a different direction. We are anarchists, but we've brought in someone who works within the state to improve citizens’ lives through the legislature. Justin Cornett started For All Tennessee so he can act as a go-between from citizens to their representatives.

For All TN listens to citizens’ needs and works to get them taken care of them by passing bills. This organization is different because its members vote on which issues to pursue, and the company is not controlled by money. For more information, visit For All Tennessee or email info@foralltn.org. Follow Justin on Facebook and Twitter. 

At The Bad Roman Project, we wish the state didn't exist. But the fact is, it does. I (Craig) have been learning that people won’t immediately jump to anarchy from their brainwashed state. We have to meet them where they're at. We have to find ways to make them see that they don't want to be controlled by an authority, especially one who only cares about them as long as they're contributing financially to the government.

Part of the work Justin is doing is spreading knowledge to average citizens about the unfair and unconstitutional laws they are abiding by. He opens their eyes to what the government is doing and encourages them to join him in pushing their local representatives in a different direction. This is a step towards freedom, a step towards taking control of what's ruling their lives and realizing how harmful the government is to their community. 

Timestamps:

2:43 Biden’s “Proclamation” about vaccine mandates

• It was just a press release

• Good ideas don’t require force

  • It’s a bad idea to criminalize bad decision making

• They never pushed the flu shot quite like this 

• “If they would have just let people decide on their own, more people probably would have taken this shot.” -Craig

• So much overreaction at the beginning by people on both sides of the aisle that people are now almost underactive and unwilling to put an experiment in their arms

• Biden and governors (like Texas and Florida) are making “mandates” about the vaccine – either that it can or cannot be required of specific people

  • But in Tennessee, it is a law that companies cannot require their employees to be vaccinated

    • Craig hasn’t had to choose between his livelihood and his life like so many others

    • Justin helped him talk to his politicians about it

8:30 We still live under our government

• Reality is, we live with a governmental system

  • If we want anything to happen, we have to work within that system

  •  most of the followers of the bad Roman are not ready to declare total anarchy, so we have to ease them into it a bit

  • “The world exists as it exists… If you try to operate contrary to the way the world actually works, it's not going to work out well for you.” -Justin

• Sometimes, people think they’re opposed to you

  • Until you take the time to understand them and explain more

    • And you both find they’ve said the same thing you said before, just differently

  • No one will listen to a headstrong bully

  • Jesus used love, hope, and patience to guide people to His path

    • If we don't use those tools, we will not succeed 

• Someone’s gotta work through the state; just not Craig ;)

13:44 For All Tennessee

• Takes policy ideas to the hill

• Members pay $5+/month

  • They get to vote on which issues are focused on

  • Also, people can designate their money for specific issues

• Utilizes different tactics such as pamphlets, door to door information sharing, and ads

• They do not campaign for or endorse certain politicians. They simply inform people about where all the politicians stand on important issues

• No party affiliation; just what's best for Tennessee

• “You don't fix what the government broke with more government. You can't really fix what the parties have broken with more parties, because the problem is inherent in the parties.” -Justin

• America was supposed to be self-governed through Representatives 

  • But right now there are two organizations who tell us what our options are, and we have to choose which of the 2 is less terrible

    • The only way to change that is for citizens to lean on their representatives

• Working to 

  • Find out what the citizens want 

  • Create policies

  • Lobby for representatives to vote for what do people in their district have asked 

    • If they don’t, they’ll lose votes

  • Find out what representatives think about policies and inform citizens

  • Guide people into a different mindset where they

    • Have influence over public policy

    • Don’t blindly follow government

      • They have the gift of free will 

    • Are aware of and ask for what's best for their community

  • Guide people to take a step towards freedom

• Run by this principle: get policy done that empowers people and limits government

28:23 How the founding fathers might feel about how things work now

• Rollin over in their graves

• If they were here, they’d go to war with our government

  • The federal government was never supposed to have as much power as it does

    • States were supposed to have more control

    • The federal budget is significantly higher than all the states’ budgets combined

    • The States created the federal government

      • And should therefore have more power 

    • The federal government does not constitutionally have the authority to pass a law 

      • But they've been doing it anyway for 100 years 

      • Everyone just behaves like the acts they have passed are law

33:04 Hypocrisy

• Saying we have to follow something because it's the law

  • While also dismissing laws that don't make sense

  • Or even disobeying align yourself while demanding that others get punished for it

•  Saying we should love our neighbor

  •  While also delighting in locking him up for nonviolent crimes

    •  Making his education, career, and family life a massive struggle

    •  Keeping him dependent on the state for sustenance

34:58 A new definition of politics

• Politics happens any time people interact with other people

• If you have a society full of garbage people, it is going to fail regardless of what government it has

• If you have a society full of people who truly care about others, the government won't be needed to control them

• We need a combination of 

  • A kind attitude towards each other and

  • A lack of governmental control

• We've got to focus on the goal

• We need to fix our eyes on Jesus, not what's going on in the world around us

  • Our treasure is not here on Earth 

  • But let's make the most out of what we have here

    •  While recognizing that this isn't the end for us

38:00 Working to limit police power

• Qualified immunity

  • Hasn't been voted on within the organization yet

  • They may or may not work on it, depending on the votes

• No-knock Raids

  • Worked to get 123 out of 132 votes to abolish them in TN

  • Written with police chiefs and the governor's office 

  • Tennessee already had a good record and policies in place to prevent no-knocks

    • This was just the final step

  • Police now have to report any excessive force used

  • Deescalation training is now required

40:52 Low-hanging fruit 

• Going for the policies that are already widely agreed upon

  • They are agreed upon by citizens, not necessarily representatives

  • Civil asset forfeiture

    • The government can see that you have assets and simply take them even when you have done nothing wrong

    • Many representatives see this as a necessary income stream for the government

    • Most average citizens have no idea this is a thing

      • So part of the work is to educate them and ask them to join against it

44:17 Effectiveness Analysis

• We check on the issues we worked on

• We got a bill passed on civil asset forfeiture that made the state more financially responsible when proven to be in the wrong

  • But they have a loophole

  • People are not being reimbursed for their legal fees

  • Now, we have another angle to focus on to help people

48:12 “We are nothing more than a revenue source for the government.” -Craig

• How do people not see this?

  • When a lie becomes commonplace, people just accept it

48:48 COVID migration

• People are moving to different states to escape COVID laws

  • Hopefully, those from the most extreme states don’t bring the lies they lived under with them

    • Conservatives are bad, but liberals are worse

    • Californians moving to Texas

  • In one county of TN, restaurants demanded people’s addresses in order to track their travel

• The government wants to divide and conquer us

  • We should be focusing on the similarities between groups

• Both sides want us to get vaccinated right now

  • Liberals get there by mandating what they think is good for us

  • Both are seeking gain and change culture

    • The way they want the culture to change to is different

    • Both prescribe laws for the purpose of culture shift

55:31 Plans for the new year

• Members can vote on what issues we focus on in 2022

  • Join before the deadline and get your vote in 

• If someone comes to us with $100,000 to work on a particular issue in a certain direction, we still need the approval of our members before moving forward

• As far as we know, no one else operates this way

  • If someone knows of an organization that does, please let us know so we can learn from them and be allies

• Currently, we only work in Tennessee but would love to have chapters in other states and then federally

  • Have incorporated for this reason

  • Everybody wants somebody to be doing this work 

Contact For All TN at info@foralltn.org

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2. Kerry Baldwin - Moral Panic, Media, & Responding to Coronavirus

In this episode, Craig speaks with independent researcher, writer, and fellow podcaster Kerry Baldwin to discuss her article The Virulence of Moral Panic, published by the Libertarian Christain Institute. The conversation centers on how the 2020 Coronavirus pandemic can be understood as Moral Panic, a term borrowed from criminal psychology, that sheds light on the factors that push societies to act in certain ways. To learn more about Kerry and how you can support her work please visit her website. 

Below you will find links to further explore topics found in the show.** 

00:29 - Kerry’s Article

00:58 - Dare to think Podcast 

2:20 - Dr. Bon’s article from Psychology Today

11:20 - What are coronaviruses?

15:30 - COVID-19 is not a conspiracy

19:00 - 3D Printing Ventilators

19:25 - FDA and Coronavirus Test from Private Labs, and for further reading

19:45 - CDC flips public mask recommendation

20:00 - Sweden’s response source 1 & 2, Germany’s response, South Korea’s response, Taiwan's response, and Singapore’s response.

21:21 - Moral Panic during coronavirus; A social psychological approach to understanding moral panic resource 1 & resource 2 

24:23 - New Mexico Governor, Michelle Lujan Grisham (D) addressing her citizens

24:55 - Tacking of social distancing

30:00 - Police called by neighbors

33:20 - Mental Health during coronavirus; Statistics on suicide rates & in TN

34:30 - The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman, wiki

**Please note, these are only starting points, we did our best to find unbiased sources, but you are encouraged to explore more sources on your own. As we learned from Kerry, framing is often a tool used to persuade us, so being aware of where our information is coming from and what biases a source may have is a strong defense. We love hearing from you, so don’t hesitate to share what you find!