78. The Role of Propaganda in Abusive Relationships with Derek Kreider

About this Episode

Derek Kreider, host of pacifist podcast “The Fourth Way,” joins Craig for a discussion on his latest season about propaganda. What is propaganda? Who propagandizes? And what benefits do they receive from doing so? From personal relationships, church institutions and the state, propaganda plays a part in how people organise themselves and Derek and Craig discuss them all.

The conversation starts with institutionalised abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention and how poorly churches deal with allegations of sexual abuse. Every year allegations of sexual misconduct are the church’s biggest problem. Even higher-ups who are not abusers are incentivized to cover up for underlings abusing their authority to keep the money flowing. We also learn that propaganda is not just what is communicated, but also includes leaving out important information, in this case to avoid “tarnishing God’s reputation” or other reasonable-sounding excuses.

Next, they discuss state propaganda. The state is basically an abuser who feels the need to control through the usual methods: charisma, controlling the flow of information and if these things fail then resorting to violence. Finally, Craig gets vulnerable about his abusive second marriage, the isolation and altercations, ending the episode with a note of hope for those who believe they are stuck in a situation of domestic violence: it is possible to escape.

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Episode Timestamps:

3:08 - Who is Derek Kreider?

• Raised conservative with Christian education

• Likes apologetics

• Currently in Romania as a missionary

4:22 – What is causing the rise in atheism? 

• Institutionalising religion ruins it

• There’s a lot of people leaving the church in America, but it’s the institutions they are leaving

• Church could also be people gathered in Jesus’ name

9:19 – The Fourth Way Podcast

• 2016 and the election of Donald Trump made Derek want to start a podcast

• The ends don’t justify the means, but the evangelical community tried to justify Trump’s actions

• Consequentialism

• Watched a video on pacifism

• Pacifism works better than grasping for power in the political realm

• Made the podcast to explore his own Christian reasoning

• The name comes from Walter Wink’s “The Third Way” but Pacifism is a fourth way, not fight, flight or freeze, but being active in pacifism

• Families who allow their loved ones killers live on death row rather than have them killed have changed those people

• Pacifism requires a whole lot more creativity to solve problems

• It brings the humanity back to the killer 

• There is nothing in the writings of the early church that indicate they were not pacifists

20:06 – What’s happening with the Southern Baptists?

• Recently it has come to light that some of their prominent leaders have abused people and other leaders have covered it up

• Then asked others to be silent about it

• Rachael Denhollander – What is a Girl Worth?

• Famous for coming forward after being abused by a doctor

• Talks about how terrible the church was at dealing with that

• Became an advocate for abuse within the Southern Baptist Church

• Although it’s not specific to the Southern Baptist Church

• Sexual allegations are the biggest problems for church every year

• When people take advantage of their positions of authority it doesn’t look like Jesus

• There should not be flawed human beings being given power in the church

• “It shall not be so among you”

• Individuals must take personal responsibility for their actions

• A lot of times power ends up corrupting people

• The Southern Baptist Convention also had leadership that covered up abuse

• In order to keep their own power

• So they don’t loose funding or control

• Do it in the name of Jesus – don’t want Him to look bad

• This is simple consequentialism

• After studying conspiracies for a year Derek thinks lots of people can hide a conspiracy

• This is not a uniquely church thing, people are corrupt

• A new structure would be full of people doing the same thing

• Maybe people are pulling back from the church because it looks just like government politics

• Sometimes members of churches solely blame individuals for problems that may be systemic

• Pastors are celebrities not shepherds, leading to people abusing power

35:09 – Propaganda, the state and abusers

• Politicians are going to go wherever the funding comes from

• This is a structural problem

• Propaganda is 100% intentional

• But its often done by people who are sincere about their cause

• A jerk on a power trip is easier to disbelieve

• Everyone propagandises

• Derek educates his kids therefore by some definitions he propagandises them

• We use the word for education that we don’t like

• In the Southern Baptists the higher-ups silence the news media that’s also propaganda

• Because it shapes your understanding

• The higher-ups say they prefer to highlight the good and leave out the bad

• It’s propaganda to leave information out

• Its an intricate web of self-justification and gaslighting

• Trump was worse on the second amendment than Obama

• Jacques Ellul – Propaganda and The Technological Society

• Propaganda produces extreme polarization

• And other quotes that could have been written yesterday

• Propaganda seeks to isolate individuals

• Repeats simple content

• Creates a problem to resolve then offers itself as a saviour

• Abusers do the same thing

• Craig’s second marriage was abusive like this

• Derek’s episode about marital abuse: Propaganda and Domestic Abusers

• You can escape an abusive relationship and God won’t be offended

• Things escalate when the abuser feels like they are out of control

• Craig’s second wife threw knives and had him arrested

• Then moved in next door when he left

• Its different in every situation

• David Graber – The Dawn of Everything

• Talks about how the state functions

• The state is basically an abuser who needs control

• Violence is risky but effective if you are stronger

• Information can also be used to control

• Charisma can be used to control others, this is the most effective

• States work like this too, when charisma (stories) stops working then they try manipulation then violence

• Abusers isolate their victims

1:00:21 – The conspiracy of corporatism

• How do we discern truth and how are beliefs formed?

• How was propaganda implemented?

• A 70 episode series on propaganda could have been much larger

• Corporations and businesses propaganda

• How do they do it?

• What effect does it have?

• What should you look out for?

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

33. Politics & Religion Roundtable with Two Christian Anarchist & Two Atheist

What does Christianity look like to a non-Christian? How does the secular world view Christian involvement in politics? Craig and Abby Cleckner(well know Bad Roman Christian-Anarchist) sit down with Nick and Josh(self-proclaimed atheist, who come with a mix of libertarian and socialists political views) to discuss faith, the state, and the mixed messages they see from Christians when these two worlds collide. In a true demonstration of how to have a civil conversation, we invite you to join us, from whatever political or faith background you may hail from, to keep asking questions and having hard conversations, especially with those you may assume you disagree with. Maybe God gave us atheists so we never stop asking questions in a pursuit to follow Christ.

Timestamps and Starting Points:

00:22 Episode Intro - What does christianity look like from a non Christian perspective? 

01:28 Josh’s Background

•  Atheist

•  Studies Mathematics at graduate level, undergrad in Physics 

• Libertarian/socialist political views

2:06 Nick’s Background

•  Atheist

• Socialist(technically)

• Non-religious background

3:48 Fundamental opposition to Christianity itself or how Christians behave vs. what they claim to believe?

• Josh’s background with Christianity and religion

  • Science and religion

  • Difference of geography

  • Christian believers and Islamic believers devoutness is the same

  • Poison of religious beliefs in politics

  • “Going to hell for voting for a democrat”

• Nick’s experience with religion

  • Never brought up with the Bible, has not read the entire things

  • Christians seem to not care about Bible in way they act

  • Told he was going to hell the one time he went to church

  • Fear based religion contradicts with idea of “loving God”

13:27 In John 3:6 Jesus says “if you do not remain in me you are like a branch that is withered, such branches are picked up thrown into the fire and burned” - is that not aggressive from a pacifist stance?

• Diversity in Christian Belief, we read the Bible with baggage

• Bible uses hyperbole

• Jesus never said to subscribe to certain beliefs, but to follow him and how he treats people. If you try to rule over them you will experience being “cast out like a branch”

16:55  Abby and Craig’s stance on scientific knowledge, how does it affect your views? 

• Craig keeps it simple, follow Christ is the best he can do

• Abby - the bible is not a scientific document, but science can have religious elements.

  • As anarchist, money for science comes from government which is a contention

21:18 How has Josh’s understanding of science discount the existence of God, why couldn't he be the one who generated the science? 

•  No physical/natural evidence for God

• Perfectly ok imagining God as the master mathematician

• Cannot accept monotheistic view of something that can be a part of the natural world, but also not be

24:02  Mythology & Religion

• Means to explain the unknown(pre-science and pre/within religion)

• Search for simple pleasant answer

28:13 Science is always pitted against religion, but are the two really opposed?

• People have different levels of need for certainty

• It is important to keep asking questions on both sides 

• Religion ask us to follow faith, feelings/belief, to be accepted, while science requires replicable evidence before it is accepted as knowledge 

33:57 Christians and Government 

• Josh - very hypocritical, evangelical shouting

• Nick - sickened on every level by the hypocrisy and lack of empathy for fellow man, amplified even more in evangelical movements

• Praying for votes?

• Equating Trump as chosen by God and America as doomed by his defeat

• The Rapture

39:18 Fear based gospel & the evangelical love for Trump

• Franklin Graham

• Early church and the state

• What does God care about? 

• Romans 13 

41:28 If Christians were not being hypocritical how would they act in the political realm?

• Josh- Government would tend toward a secular system if beliefs were “checked at door” and there would be no issue. The problem begins when a narrow view from the Bible is imposed on laws today.

• Nick - when Christians get into gov’t it’s their rights above all others, which seems to be in bad faith, when rhetoric of the evangelical base seems hate filled.

• Where were the evangelicals speaking out against kids in cages?

44:57 Christians need to understand the Republican party is not pro-life or Liberty

• Why do they care more about fetuses than people who are already alive?

• Never ending wars? 

47:17 Donald Trump is more akin to the antiChrist

• Trump “I never had a reason to ask for forgiveness”

• Is he what Christians actually stand for vs. what they proclaim to stand for?

53:11 People raised in the mindset of all powerful God, adopt a very top-down authoritarian worldview, does this prime these future voters to fall for someone like Trump?

• Mass incarceration, uncountable amount of laws, need for authority

• Theocracy is equally unsettling  

• Avoiding extreme positions, forgetting the nuances - math and life

• Thought crime

• Authoritarian political candidates and authoritarian view of religion

58:10 Is there Hell?

• Universalist Ideal

• Hell is an experience we have in life not eternal torment

• Jewish Mysticism - Kabbalah and Hell

• Worshiping the Bible vs. Jesus

1:01:46 Is the Bible the word of God or translation from others?

• The bible is a translation and collection of stories written by multiple people

• Just follow Jesus

• We are not going to full understand it in today's terms because of its origin

1:03:15  Dangers of having multiple interpretations of the BIble - is this the reason why it needs to be out of politics and why we need some level of secular governance?

• “The evangelical vote”

• Josh - don’t we need government to do some level of things

  • Markets can be forms/sources of authoritarianism?

    • Free market - Libertarian right, eco-libertarian, anarcho-capitalist

      • Monopolies that suppress rights of people

  • Abby - not possible without gov’t support to get Barons of industry, we don’t have true competition in the market because of regulations stopping it

1:07:15 The freer the market the freer the people?

• Josh - market is a tool, in some circles the market becomes the government

  • Things like climate change or harmful products require some kind of oversight to remove dangerous things from being freely traded

• Clear Patterson - geochemist, discovered age of earth and that lead content in water/atmosphere was toxic

• Are oil companies the market? No, because it is controlled by the government, not a free market.

 1:11:05 What can Christians do differently to make non-christians be non-resentful towards Christains? 

• Nick - Christianity is too far gone? 

• Religion vs. Christianity 

• Why Craig is not a big fan or religion anymore 

• Josh - ignoring science in facts is where he loses them, if in any sort of public entity that has to be checked at the door 

• Morality can not be legislated

11:16:16 Outsourcing morality to the state, Is the state evil?

• Nick - tries to be cautious of notions of good vs. evil to avoid black and white dichotomy.

  • Bigger issue is our system is broken on almost every level

  • We all have our individual ideas but putting them into action is what's difficult

  • Is there a system now that truly benefits everyone?

•  Can you change the mafia from the inside?

•  Josh - saying all government does is evil ignores success of government, it is a tool that can be used both for “evil” and “good”; government meaning a collection of people who have come together to navigate something

• Abby - initiating violence is never permissible

1:21:23 Violence by government - what do we define as violence? 

• Josh - harming human beings is violence or but being taxed?

• Craig - majority of taxes go to military to kill people we will never meet in our lives

• Voluntary Taxation Systems - base taxes then option to choose where your tax portion goes

1:24:18 Majority of Christians celebrate war

• Blind patriotism - weird sense of freedom

• Care more about soldiers who have died than those who come back injured

1:29:57 American exceptionalism & Christianity

• God created everybody

• Being a living God means he doesn’t control anything

• Can’t pray cancer away with enough faith

• Story of three boats

1:33:21 Prosperity Gospel - televangelist - the people who exploit people’s faith and profit

1:36:14 Be a Cheerful giver - Doctrines and Children

• Science must exist in free system

• How can a Christian grow in their faith without questioning what is going on? 

 1:39:39 Josh’s Plug’s

• Articles at universe today Josh Campbell

• Journey to the Stars

19. John Dangelo - The Battle of Two Faiths - Politics & Christ

In this episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, Marine Corps veteran and former atheist, John Dangelo joins Craig for a conversation on the disconnect between what the state does and its compatibility with living the way a faith in Christ challenges us to live. They explore themes of war, contemporary progressivism, and how Christians on the right and left have forgotten how to separate political and religious faith.

As Christian Voluntaryist/Anarchist, we put our faith in Christ, not the authority of man made states. When we take a step back, most of our life, from who’s going to fold the laundry, to where we should go on vacation, or to whose turn it is to pick the kids up from soccer practice is done without government intervention, it is voluntary, it is the true definition of voluntaryism/anarchism. So why did Christians cry out at a man kneeling before a flag rather than kneel before that same flag for the sake of Christ? The realities of this entanglement is what we explore in episode 19 and the cornerstone of what the Bad Roman Project seeks to explore.

Timestamps and resources for further exploration:

00:51 John’s background

• Nursing & time in military

• Camp Leatherneck

• Being an atheist

• Anti War propaganda (antiwar.com)

01:47 Clinging to faith in political parties instead of in Christ

03:59 Does it benefit politicians on the right to ban abortion

05:24 “Where else would they go”

• the state, the Christian, and Trump’s lasting impressions on the Republican party

06:38 Theatrics in place of debate - contemporary progressivism

• Michael Malice, The New Right

• Progressivism and totalitarianism

• Social process v. political change

09:13 Evangelical left

• Pew data on evangelicals and protestants political bends

13:06 Push back from other veterans on John’s writings

13:57 Talking with other Christians

• Being a Sunday school teacher

• Thrive Church

15:04 Where is the disconnect for Christians when it comes to war?

• “Mission creep”   

• How 9/11 was used to rationalize US federal power expanse 

• Syria, Somalia, Niger

• Use of sanctions

18:58 What is the hold up for Christians?

• Losing site of faith when talking politics

 22:23 The failures of the two-party system & the path to anarchy

• Is a third party possible?

• Malice and technology reshaping the political landscapes

• Voter turnout in the 2016 US presidential election

25:56 Colin Kapernick kneeling and the response from the right

26:37 Overtly political symbols in Church

• You cannot be a servant to two masters

• Peaceful protest

• Anarchist are supposed to be peaceful

29:50 We are anarchist in 99% of our lives

• Reject rules, chose it voluntarily 

32:10 Collapse of the Soviet Union

• Was relatively peaceful, things did not go up in flames

35:40  Government as Mad Max analogy 

38:16 John’s plugs

• Website: antiwar.com

• Personal site: antiwarwarvet.com

• Instagram @antiwarwarvet

• God Weeps for His Church, article on the Bad Roman website