90. Ideologies, Freedom & Critical Thinking with Mat and Phil from the Way of Life Podcast

About this Episode

Get ready for an enlightening journey with Mat and Phil from the Way of Life Podcast, as we delve into pressing topics that shape our everyday lives. Mat shares his background of growing up in Australia, being heavily involved in church, and pursuing pastoral ministry, while Phil gives an insight into his life as an underground coal miner and his interest in video production. The conversation also dive into the importance of meeting people where they are and encouraging them to think critically about what they hear. 

In our current global climate, how can we ignore the ideological shifts happening all around us? Mat and Phil take us on a fascinating journey, exploring the transformation of the understanding of harm in the progressive movement and its impact on politics in the U.S. and Australia. We probe into the concept of democracy, examining its potential pitfalls, and discuss whether sources of information like TikTok are skewing our perception of harm. 

But we don’t stop there. Our conversation meanders into the realm of military alliances, political apathy, and the intertwining of governmental and religious institutions. We scrutinize the US-Australia military alliance, ponder the implications of an increasingly intrusive government, and discuss the possibility of a U.S. government collapse. Are our understandings of freedom without boundaries leading us astray? 

In the final part of our discussion, we explore how the concept of freedom without boundaries can lead to a herd mentality and discuss the necessity of teaching people to think independently. We also assess the intertwining of church and state in the United States and how this contrasts with the Australian church scene. Wrapping up, we share the mission of the Way of Life podcast – equipping people to think critically and fostering a space for open dialogue. So, buckle up and prepare to see the world through a unique lens!

Connect with Mat and Phil:

Facebook Way of Life Podcast

Youtube Way of Life Podcast

Spotify Way of Life Podcast

Apple Way of Life Podcast

Episode Timestamps:

01:39 Mat’s Background

• Christian 

• drummer

• Works with Youth at Church now

• Meeting people where they’re at

05:33 Phil’s Background

• Underground coal miner

• Video producer

• Joined ministry at 13

• Started a podcast with Mat

09:25 Leaving Mainstream Media for Alternative Sources

• Getting information from podcasts

• Media Landscape in Australia

• Liberal vs. labor parties

• Democracy and tyranny

• Does the government ensure peace?

15:14 Shifting Definition of Harm among generations

• Physical harm vs. psychological harm 

• Tik Tok, Podcasts, Youtube raising a generation

• Role of feedback in forming ideas/beliefs

• In such polarized times people are afraid to say something doesn’t make sense

• The middle has been eroded

• Idiocracy (2006)

25:19 Australian and US Government Alliance

• American government is entertainment for Austrsilians

• Click-bait

• Gary Johnson

• Democrats being anti-war in the past

• Yemen and Saudis

• Jesus worked towards peace and the government alway does harm

• Church is outsourcing charity to the state

• Australians don’t like to talk about government as openly as Americans

• Christian identity is wrapped up in political identity in from the Australian point of view

• Fine in australia for enrolling to vote and not submitting ballot sheet

• “Donkey vote”

• Crocodile Dundee

• Australians a generally trusting

• Government was less invasive

• John Anderson

• Small government vs. what exist today

• Can we go back?

• Patriot Act

• US involvement with Ukraine

• Oil Protectors of America

• Poppy fields in Afghanistan 

• Peter Zhan

• US’s role in global trade route “protection”

45:37 How Australian churches Interact with Government

• Politics does not make it into the pulpit

• Some Christian lobbyist groups

50:51 Way of Life Podcast

• post-Christian nation

• Freedom without boundary

• Never give more than three options in retail

• Crippled by information young people go with the herd

• Being very passionate about something you have not thought very hard on

• John 14:6

• Doing show live because Q&A is big portion of the show

• Learning to disagree with others in a healthy way

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Related Blog Post

75. Finding Common Ground Between Christian and Secular Anarchists with Alan Mosley

About this Episode

Craig is joined by Alan Mosley, the host of “It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley”, historian and libertarian writer, for a friendly discussion about what Alan, an atheist and anarchist, has in common with Christian anarchists. They work through the anarchist catchphrase, “No rulers, no masters, no gods”, exploring its meaning and conclude that Christian and secular anarchists can, and indeed should, be allies in liberty. 

Alan could school some Christians in the teachings of Jesus, especially concerning holding an anti-war stance, the application of the non-aggression principle and disdain for institutional structures. The way Alan sees it, the church has been conquered by the state. Churches fly the American flag and teach the Christian voting block to hate their neighbors and enemies, in direct contrast to the teachings of Jesus. The Bible is full of revolutionary thoughts that, if applied, should transform societies just as they have in the past. 

Craig and Alan discuss everything from dropping bombs to end WWII, support for troops and how to improve their psychological well-being, judging the morality of historical characters from past eras, and things that make the church unappealing to unbelievers. Yet, they continuously come back to the need to speak the truth about all of these things courageously. 

Alan Mosley:

YouTube: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Facebook: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Twitter: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Apple Podcast: It’s Too Late with Alan Mosley

Article: Ike and Leahy Were Right: The Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki Were Wrong

Episode Timestamps:

1:38 – Who is Alan Mosley?

• Podcast host

• Jazz musician

• Historian

• Writer

3:22 – What common grounds do atheists and Christian anarchists have?

• Anti-war

• Not interested in playing politics with war

• WWII and the atomic bomb

• Christian anarchists and libertarians are good on this topic

• The early church were pacifists and anti-war

• Christians should not defend war

• Christians should opt out until the government receivess no support for war

• We need to raise children on principles of non-aggression so they don’t join the military

• These need to be spoken of rather than ignored

• Police officers are trained in an us-versus-them mentality

• Churches teach this way too

• That was not in the teachings of Christ

• Supporting the troops is talking about the pressures that face them when they come home

• High suicide rates

• Participating in drone bombing pre-schools

• Improving their psychological well-being

• Stopping children from entering the recruiting offices

• Just following orders is not a good excuse

• It enables the bad ideas of angry rich men in DC to happen

25:27 - The state has conquered churches

• That’s what the American flag on the stage means

• The flag is a rival of Christ

• The state manipulates people through the state

• Turning you against your neighbor and enemy

• Making people afraid of the other team

• Creating a voting block

• Christians should be suspicious of the state; it killed Jesus

30:14 – Comparing morality through the ages

• It’s easy to look back and assume moral superiority over the founding fathers over their non-politically correct actions

• If you look at the state of the world now compared to earlier times, scripture was full of revolutionary ideas

• Live by the sword, die by the sword

• Might makes right was the ethos of humanities history

• The Bible is full of transformational thoughts

• Christian history is full of people giving their lives to defend their faith

• But these days, people won’t talk about their beliefs in case they are ostracized

34:55 – What makes the church unattractive to unbelievers?

• Not representing Jesus correctly

• Endorsing war and the state

• Not helping the poor and widows

• Unequivocal support for Israel’s war atrocities makes the church unappealing

• Warmongers in Israel don’t care about you even though your taxes pay their way

42:15 – The roots of liberty

• Anarchy is the root of liberty

• Christ made everyone with liberty

• Can anarchists serve Christ?

• More atheists are statists

• Alan says no enforced rulers, no enforced masters, no enforced gods

• True Christians are not for theocratic fascists

• Adding enforced to the catchphrase makes more sense

• Bible-thumping church-goers are insufferable

• Christian anarchists and secular anarchists should be allies in liberty

• Jesus was the OG anarchist

• Be charitable in attempting to understand your opponent’s worldview

• It helps build a community

• We should not be forced into relationships that we do not want to be a part of either

• Pick your battles

• Find the like-minded remnant

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Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

69. From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian with John Krueger

About this Episode

Craig is joined by John Krueger for a conversation about his journey from being an angry Anarcho-Capitalist to a peaceful Anarcho-Christian. Unjust police killings, SWAT raids gone wrong and harsh lockdowns made John angry. He was eager to learn how to use a gun and imagined himself needing to protect his family from police violence. In the midst of this, the Holy Spirit met John and showed him a peaceful option.

Libertarian philosophy is peaceful, but we need Jesus and His word to have the whole picture. Craig and John advocate for Christian pacifism and examine what was going on in their hearts at the points when they both contemplated joining the military. Craig and John discuss the libertarian and Christian anarchist positions on the decriminalization of drugs, the real needs of terrorists, the US at war, gun control, and other contentious current issues.

The state is coercion and violence. Laws are enforced with fines that are begrudgingly paid to avoid the threat of violence or time spent in a cage. You cannot make people peaceful like this, using the state’s methods. But rather, we need to be those who allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to change the hearts and minds of those surrounding us; that is how social change works in the Kingdom. Let’s listen to Jesus and do things His way, forsaking violence and anger. Let’s work towards peace.

Connect with John Krueger on

• Practical Christology

• TikTok

Episode Timestamps:

1:27 – Who is John Krueger?

• From Columbus, Ohio

  • Grew up attending church

• 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 stood out

  • Paul writes about grace

• Journey to anarchism

  • Read Blue Like Jazz

    • Jesus was not a republican or a conservative

    • Became politically independent

  • Eventually considered voting

    • Began researching libertarianism

      • Clicked with his understanding of the Grace of God

  • Took a few more years to become an anarcho-capitalist

8:58 – Libertarians, drugs, and terrorists

• It’s easy to understand decriminalizing marijuana 

• Harder to understand decriminalizing heroin use

  • People shouldn’t be locked in a cage for it

  • People should be free to make their own choices

    • Provided they aren’t hurting others

• Osama Bin Laden needed Jesus

  • Not bombs

  • We can’t bomb people into peace

    • If we bomb all sinners, there will be no one left

• John and Craig let go of the war stuff last

  • The history of the Middle East is important

  • The US is still at war

    • More people are mad at the US for continuously bombing them

• Jesus said in His Kingdom:

  • You rule by washing feet

    • Only pagans lord it over their subjects

  • But instead, our “Christian Nation” goes to war

    • To spread democracy

• We don’t need the government for roads

• We don’t need police

• Losing friends because of speaking out about:

  • Getting troops home

  • Veteran suicides

  • Broken men and families

  • Sending the poor to fight a rich man’s war

20:11 – Craig and John considered joining the military

• Craig wanted to kill people out of anger after 911

  • Application rejected

    • 4 pounds over the weight limit

• John wanted to join the military because he felt powerless

  • Wanted to be great in battle - like David

  • Experienced God’s compassion for those killed on both sides

• Christians still justify war and killing

  • Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father

  • There is nothing about Jesus’ life that says you can kill in war

• Pacifism is the way for Christians

  • Craig still gets a hard time from Christians for his pacifist stance

  • The early church was 100% pacifist

    • Even to their own deaths

  • Jesus healed the Roman soldier and admonished Peter

    • When Jesus disarmed Peter, he disarmed every Christian

26:24 – Libertarians and Gun Control

• After shootings those on the left talk about taking away guns

• But guns will be taken away by force

  • Giving more power to the state

• Need to study history

• We don’t advocate for gun control

  • It’s enforced by violence

  • We should bear God’s peace instead

• The left sees calls to reduce state size as calls to let people starve

• John does not own guns, 

  • Only advocates for less government action

• We don’t use the state for any reason

• The same people who take guns away are those who shoot unarmed black men

• Fines are enforced through the threat of violence

• The ‘hero’ who ended the life of a would-be shooter still ended a life

• Jesus would not be training churches to enact violence

• We are here to bring the gospel to people

37:10 – From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian Anarchist

• When John was an An-Cap he was angry at the state

  • Police killings made him angry

  • Made him want to get into guns

• Angry at government shutdowns because of shutdowns

• Holy Spirit showed him it would be better to defy the government in peaceful ways

  • Sneakily helping people

  • Blessing those who curse

  • Not needing to worry about what to say in front of judges

• Libertarians are never happy with the government

  • No matter who is in power they are stuffing everything up

  • Anger is not the fruit of the spirit

• Romans 11-14 need to be read together

  • Our heart position should be peaceful

• Libertarians need Jesus to have the full picture

42:48 – Romans 13 and libertarianism

• “Submit” and “obey” are not the same

  • When Christians get it wrong: 

    • They end up supporting government atrocities

    • Lives will be ruined

    • The state becomes an idol

• The early church withheld communion from people who worked for the state

  • Unless people were already soldiers

    • And had sworn off killing or oppressing people

    • None wore their weapons

    • All were to serve

• Getting Christians into power will not help

  • It is no longer Christianity

• The power is the wrong power

  • The Holy Spirit is the only power we need

  • Political power is force

  • Christians do not need to take the ”Seven Mountains” of power

  • These do not sound like Jesus

• Polycarp would not denounce Jesus

  • In the face of his own death

  • King Jesus has never done me any harm

• Everything that the state does harms somebody in some fashion

  • If they are helping you, they are harming someone else

  • The state is not a protector

• Jesus Christ is the only King

  • He wants the best for us

54:12 – How should we pray for government?

• We should pray for government and leaders

  • Craig prays for the state to end

  • The current chaos is caused by the state

  • We need to follow Jesus and walk away

  • John prays for leadership to know the gospel

    • Not the American folklore

    • But the true gospel

• Craig will take the words of the early church fathers over pastors

  • When modern pastors disagree with the early church

  • They still screwed things up

  • They aren’t Jesus

  • They were closer in time to Jesus

  • We need to get back to that

    • What we are doing now as the church is not working

• The Reformers had a blind spot when it came to the church

  • They killed people

• The Anabaptists became the Mennonites and Amish

  • They were peaceful

• Catholics are going back to mysticism

  • The church fathers and grace teachings

1:02:54 – Let’s bring it back to Jesus

• Listen to Jesus

  • Love your neighbor

  • Love your enemy

  • Love God

• It’s impossible to follow His teachings

  • But we should try:

    • Working towards good

    • Not working toward violence

    • Not working towards anger or hate

    • Working towards peace

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54. Waging Peace: Seeing God Before the Resurrection with Jason Porterfield

About this episode

Author and self-proclaimed ‘aspiring peacemaker,’ Jason Porterfield, returns to the show to walk Bad Roman co-hosts, Craig Harguess and Abby Cleckner, through his new book, Fight Like Jesus: How Jesus Waged Peace Throughout Holy Week.  

Come Spring we tend to look straight to Easter, to the miracle of the resurrection, but just how much do we miss when we forget the why and how of what led up to Christ’s crucifixion? By taking an in-depth look at each day in the final week of Jesus’ life, Jason’s book is a guide and game-changer for any Christian who still thinks Jesus died to protect us from a wrathful God. 

God is love! He is not a hammer or sword-wielding warrior, but a force of mercy, humility, and reckoning. How often do we forget this today? How often do we use the bible to justify violent means to imagined peaceful ends? 

“Jesus used a whip in the temple”

“Jesus told them to take swords”

“Jesus said render unto Caesar”

How many of our enemies must we fight or destroy to create peace? How many verses must we take out of context to justify our sin? Peter was scolded for his violence and we remain under the same command to disarm. 

To build the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, to try to love one another and our enemies in the way Christ set forth is a radical position to take both in Jesus’s time and now. Holy Week is crucial to understanding how God’s love works. It is through those days we see and experience Jesus’s message and example in action. 

This episode is a challenge to you to look at yourself, your actions, and if they reflect what you think you believe. It can be easy to think we are on the right side of the resurrection, that we, of course, are on the side of Jesus, but it is just as easy to fail to see we are the ones plotting against the way of peacemaking, that we are the ones holding the hammer over our savior on the cross. We invite you to listen with an open mind, to humble yourself to the folly we all are susceptible to fall into in the midst of miracles. 

If you want to learn more about Jason’s work and message you can connect with him on his website, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Episode Timestamps:

2:15 Episode #14 Fight Like a Christian with Keith Giles and Jason 

3:20 Motivation for writing Fight Like Jesus: How Jesus Waged Peace Throughout Holy Week  

• Failing as a peacemaker

• How do you Love your enemy and neighbor when your enemy is oppressing your neighbor

• Holy week is when we see Jesus enacting all he has said as an active peacemaker

8:08 Why was Jesus shedding tears?

• Passover

• Pontius Pilate

• Hosana translates to “save us now”

• Palm Branches - politically loaded symbols of rebellion

  • Judas Maccabeus

14:16 Christians waging/supporting war vs. living out teachings of Jesus

• Jesus comes back as lamb not warrior

• Revelations 6

19:30 Monday - Jesus Cleansing the Temple

• Ched Myers

  • Jesus returns with planned, calculated action, not rash “temple fit”

• John’s mention of whip used to justify violence by Christians

  • St. Augustine

  • John Calvin, having Servetus put to death

  • Bernard of Clairvaux

• Did Jesus whip people?

  • No, it was more of shooing animal whip - not an instrument of torture

• Catholic Theologian Raymond Brown

  • Whip material was likely animal bedding materials

• John 2:15 

  • Greek translation reveals ‘tu’ modifies all to be sheep and cattle, i.e. John is clarifying who he is using the whip on

• Jesus was not passive in the face of injustice, he was an active pacifist

  • Jesus’s zeal does not destroy, it opens up more for everyone 

  • After the cleansing those who were excluded were invited in

31:32 Tuesday (part 1) - Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and God what is God’s

• Mark 12

• Jesus uses the word “repay” vs. “pay”

  • He switches the verb of the question, which requires you to answer the question of what belongs to God and what belongs to Cesar? 

• Did Jesus’s supporters hear (misinterpret) something else in “pay back” what is owed?

• Jesus leaves people with more questions than answers - makes you think

36:51 Tuesday (part 2) - The 7 Woes

• Speaking truth to power or using authority/power to bash and crush others?

• Easier to see ourselves on the side or Jesus vs. Pharisees

 38:18 Wednesday - Eye of the Hurricane, Quiet Day with  'Backroom Deals’ 

• Jewish leaders scheme to murder Jesus

  • Caiaphas and The Sanhedrin 

• Judas excepting price to betray Jesus

• Unnamed woman

  • First to anoint Jesus as messiah 

• USA Bombing of Cambodia

  • Khmer Rouge 

• Fictional future to justify a present means

 45:10 Thursday (Part 1) - The New Command

• Love each other as I have loved you

  • New standard of love he set in how to love

• What is true evangelism?

  • Living and being the community of God so others can experience it

  • Make others curious about your life by how much you love God 

• 1 Peter 2 

• Faciniation precedes explanation

51:30 Thursday (Part 2) - The Two Swords (Gun Culture)

• Jesus healed the roman soldier harmed by Peter

• Not “time is not right” but “time is never right” attitude to violence

• Two swords allow them to appear as a violence mob, but then reject that violence as an example

• Disciples fled when Jesus revoked Peter’s violence  

  • They were ready to fight for a new king

59:10 Friday - Understating the Crucifiction 

• Did Jesus die to save us from God?

• Fear of God vs. Love of Christ

• Comparison and choice of Jesus (Peaceful nonviolent) or Barabbas (the violent insurrectionist Messiah)

  • They chose person who would fight and crucified Jesus

• Peacemakers cultivate the future Jesus promised

  • Do the work, stop waiting for Jesus to come back and solve all of the problems

• We are passive in our violence

1:09:00 The Resurrection

• Eschatology

  • Understanding of how things end

• Sunday’s Resurrection - symbolized the end we seek is starting to be lived out

• Early church decided to live out the future now

  • Model the way of Jesus

• Dave Andrews

  • “On our best days we’ll approximate the kingdom of God on earth and on our worst days we’ll  parody and mimic kingdom of God”

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19. John Dangelo - The Battle of Two Faiths - Politics & Christ

In this episode of the Bad Roman Podcast, Marine Corps veteran and former atheist, John Dangelo joins Craig for a conversation on the disconnect between what the state does and its compatibility with living the way a faith in Christ challenges us to live. They explore themes of war, contemporary progressivism, and how Christians on the right and left have forgotten how to separate political and religious faith.

As Christian Voluntaryist/Anarchist, we put our faith in Christ, not the authority of man made states. When we take a step back, most of our life, from who’s going to fold the laundry, to where we should go on vacation, or to whose turn it is to pick the kids up from soccer practice is done without government intervention, it is voluntary, it is the true definition of voluntaryism/anarchism. So why did Christians cry out at a man kneeling before a flag rather than kneel before that same flag for the sake of Christ? The realities of this entanglement is what we explore in episode 19 and the cornerstone of what the Bad Roman Project seeks to explore.

Timestamps and resources for further exploration:

00:51 John’s background

• Nursing & time in military

• Camp Leatherneck

• Being an atheist

• Anti War propaganda (antiwar.com)

01:47 Clinging to faith in political parties instead of in Christ

03:59 Does it benefit politicians on the right to ban abortion

05:24 “Where else would they go”

• the state, the Christian, and Trump’s lasting impressions on the Republican party

06:38 Theatrics in place of debate - contemporary progressivism

• Michael Malice, The New Right

• Progressivism and totalitarianism

• Social process v. political change

09:13 Evangelical left

• Pew data on evangelicals and protestants political bends

13:06 Push back from other veterans on John’s writings

13:57 Talking with other Christians

• Being a Sunday school teacher

• Thrive Church

15:04 Where is the disconnect for Christians when it comes to war?

• “Mission creep”   

• How 9/11 was used to rationalize US federal power expanse 

• Syria, Somalia, Niger

• Use of sanctions

18:58 What is the hold up for Christians?

• Losing site of faith when talking politics

 22:23 The failures of the two-party system & the path to anarchy

• Is a third party possible?

• Malice and technology reshaping the political landscapes

• Voter turnout in the 2016 US presidential election

25:56 Colin Kapernick kneeling and the response from the right

26:37 Overtly political symbols in Church

• You cannot be a servant to two masters

• Peaceful protest

• Anarchist are supposed to be peaceful

29:50 We are anarchist in 99% of our lives

• Reject rules, chose it voluntarily 

32:10 Collapse of the Soviet Union

• Was relatively peaceful, things did not go up in flames

35:40  Government as Mad Max analogy 

38:16 John’s plugs

• Website: antiwar.com

• Personal site: antiwarwarvet.com

• Instagram @antiwarwarvet

• God Weeps for His Church, article on the Bad Roman website