86. The Legacy of the Early Church with Abby Cleckner (as host)

About this Episode

Abby Cleckner is back to host this episode with your regular host as today’s guest, and we'll be taking a captivating journey into early church history. Together, Craig and Abby shed light on the core beliefs of the early church, the lives, and works of key figures like Polycarp, Origen, and Tertullian, and the awe-inspiring resilience they displayed in the face of adversity.

Join us as we delve into Tertullian's unconventional views on the role of the church and the state, and how his words resonate with Jesus' teachings about the Gentiles. Discover why Tertullian ultimately left the church, and how his perspective on the church-state relationship in his time pushes us to question the present-day status quo. You won't want to miss this stimulating discussion!

Lastly, we'll compare the approaches of early church fathers like Polycarp, Origen, and Tertullian in handling the persecution of Christianity by the Roman Empire. Uncover the radical pacifism that set the early church apart and how their commitment to nonviolent resistance transformed the world. We'll also dig into their views on religious freedom, rooted in the belief that it was a gift from God, not the state. Don't miss out on this exploration of the early church's incredible legacy and its enduring relevance to our lives today.

Episode Timestamps:

01:11 The Return of Abby Cleckner

• Podcast Hosting Exhaustion

• Abby and Craig discuss balancing family life and work, maintaining a consistent recording rhythm, producing a podcast, and preparing content.

07:51 Abby’s Podcast Intro as today’s Host

• Craig’s “bio”

09:34 Craig’s Early Church Article

• Article: THE EARLY CHURCH AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF VOLUNTARYISM (CHRISTIAN-ANARCHISM)

• Why the interest in the early church

• Early church’s Influence on the Podcast

• No King but Christ

12:36 Significance of the first few hundred years of the church

• Pacifism and Christ's Kingship Significance

• Stakes of believing in Christ in those times

15:44  Exploring the Early Church's Leaders

• Polycarp, Origen, and Tertullian's beliefs in Jesus' divinity and how Christians should act 

• Polycarp and Apolstale John

• Unwavering faith vs. today’s

• Origen and historical claims

21:02 The value of taking the time to read the early church fathers

• Church vs. State relationship

• Roman Empire vs. Christians

23:49 Tertulian's Christian View on State

• Tertullian's perspective on the church and state challenges us to question the status quo

• black-and-white approach

• Contextual approach to reading history

 29:18 Why were these early church leaders writing things down?

• Tertullian was writing to Romans

• Origen was “talking to everybody”

• Writing your congressperson a letter vs these early church father’s writings' legacy

34:48 Early Church Fathers vs. Early Church History

• We have their writings – source text

• The Christians as the Romans Saw Them, 

• Use of propaganda by Romans

37:44 Book Recommendations

• The Christians as the Romans Saw Them, Robert Lewis Wilken

• The Early Christians: In Their Own Words, Eberhard Arnold 

• The Early Church on Killing, Ronald J. Sider  

• Liberty and The Things of God: The Christian Origens of Religious Freedom, Robert Louis Wilken

• Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs, David W. Bercot

41:32 What the Early Church Got Wrong

• Tertullian's views on universalism and eternal conscious torment

• Origen being called a heretic and universalism 

• Grace Saves All Podcast

• Importance of reading and learning for yourself

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76. "What about Romans 13?" with Matt Mouzakis

About this Episode

Craig is joined by Matt Mouzakis, worship pastor and co-host of Expedition 44, a popular theology podcast where the ancient languages and context of the Bible are discussed. Matt is doing his doctorate in New Testament studies, specializing in the passages often cited by Christian statists when they want to defend strict obedience to the government.

Matt explains how words like submit (hypotassesthō), and concepts like paying taxes take on very different meanings when placed in their proper context. Read Romans 13 through the eyes of a first-century Jew, see it in a fresh new light, and be prepared to confound the next statist who asks you, "But what about Romans 13?".

In fact, the only one to whom people owe allegiance and should be under the authority of is Jesus Himself. When we desire to put another into power over ourselves and our neighbors, it is a sin because humans are not to have authority over one another.

Craig and Matt delve into those passages used against women in ministry. Again, we discover that read in the context of the time and in their original language, nothing suggests women are to be subject to men in God's kingdom. We find God's ideals at the beginning and end of the Bible, and that is God alone reigning over humanity.

Expedition 44:

YouTube

Website

Covenant Theological Seminary

Expedition 44 episode on Romans 13

Ryan's book: This is the Way

Episode Timestamps:

1:54 – Who is Matt Mouzakis?

• Worship pastor at "Bapticostal" church

• Father of 4

• Theology geek doing Doctorate in New Testament

• Co-host of Expedition 44 podcast with Dr Ryan (Head Chair of Biblical Studies at Covenant Theological Seminary

• Expedition 44

• Discuss the ancient context of the Bible

• Salvation is a journey "expedition" 

• The separatist ancient Essene community gave themselves the number 22

• God doubles the portion, which is where the 44 comes from 

8:15 – The Church of Nationalism

• American pastors don't speak against the entanglement of Christians and the state

• Sometimes they advocate for candidates

• The early church was outspoken against the Roman Empire

• But it is glossed over these days

• Churches seek power through the state now

• There's no basis in the Bible for Christians to be seeking any power

• We need no king but Christ

• Politics comes into your theology

• Some would say that representative government is different from serving another king

• In the first two pages and last two pages of the Bible is where you find God's ideals

• Everything in the middle is messed up

• Humans are not to have authority over one another

• Not even men over women

• The hebrew word "Tsela" should be translated as "side" rather than "rib"

• On the last page of the Bible, you see men and women under God's authority

• That's God's ideal

• That should inform our politics

• We are ambassadors from another King

• Our government has its own kingdom

• The fall is the "defilement of all of creation"

• There are multiple falls in the Old Testament

• When people usurp God's authority, humans rule other humans

• That is not a part of God's ideals

18:58 – Women in Ministry

• A topic that is spoken about on Expedition 44

• Women were the first to tell of Jesus' resurrection

• The men were in hiding

• Paul was very egalitarian

• When we don't look at the Bible in context, it gets confusing

• If Genesis 3 is reversed in Jesus, the church should reflect that

• The local context of Paul telling women to be quiet was an all-women-led cult

• Right before that, he tells the men off for being angry

• None should have authority over others in the church

• The women were trying to teach before they had learned

• Greek tenses matter in better translation

• Keith Giles's episode about women and the church

• Women stayed at home and were less educated in Paul's day

• Women were to learn but not interrupt the service

• 1 Corinthians 14: 34-35 might be an error added to the text based on a scribble by a scribe

• Philip Payne's book – One In Christ

• Expedition 44 episode – Women Must Be Silent?

26:16 – Romans 13

• The words "submit" and "obey" are two different words

• Romans 13 is the go-to for opponents of "No King but Christ"

• Romans 13 should be read in light of Romans 12

• The chapter breaks weren't there originally

• Romans chapters 12-16 should be read as a chunk

• All the things that Jesus said about enemy love do not fit with Romans 13

• Romans 13:1 & 5 Submit is hypotassesthō

• Defined as voluntary yielding

• Obey God is hupakouó

• David Bently Heart – New Testament

• It is necessary that we obey God rather than man

• The Bible should be read as a whole

• The whip that Jesus used was a common tool to heard animals

• He didn't harm any people

• He was angry at the extortion in the temple

• The gospel spreads by word of mouth too

• "Governing authorities"

• A common expression for anyone with authority

• Not necessarily government

• The people of the day were in Rome

• A place of multiple layers of governing 

• Neighborhood watch role, rather than law enforcement

• Rome wasn't taxed at the time when Romans was written

• Romans 13:1 - exousia means evil powers

• And appears in Ephesians 6:12

• Paul understood demons controlled the empires

• Jesus didn't rebuke Satan when he offered Him the kingdoms of the world

• Deuteronomy 32 – Moses says God divided mankind and gave them to the sons of God

42:18 – Is voting a sin?

• 1 Samuel 8

• Craig has concluded that voting is a sin

• Jesus said the gentiles lorded power over others, but we were not to be the same

• God said it was not Samuel that was rejected, rather it was God Himself

• Rejecting God is a sin

• Sleeping is better than exercising power over others

• Matt and Steve discussed whether or not Christians should vote

• The desire to have a king is to reject God

• Voting is the desire to put someone in power over ourselves and neighbors

• Therefore, voting is a rejection of God

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69. From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian with John Krueger

About this Episode

Craig is joined by John Krueger for a conversation about his journey from being an angry Anarcho-Capitalist to a peaceful Anarcho-Christian. Unjust police killings, SWAT raids gone wrong and harsh lockdowns made John angry. He was eager to learn how to use a gun and imagined himself needing to protect his family from police violence. In the midst of this, the Holy Spirit met John and showed him a peaceful option.

Libertarian philosophy is peaceful, but we need Jesus and His word to have the whole picture. Craig and John advocate for Christian pacifism and examine what was going on in their hearts at the points when they both contemplated joining the military. Craig and John discuss the libertarian and Christian anarchist positions on the decriminalization of drugs, the real needs of terrorists, the US at war, gun control, and other contentious current issues.

The state is coercion and violence. Laws are enforced with fines that are begrudgingly paid to avoid the threat of violence or time spent in a cage. You cannot make people peaceful like this, using the state’s methods. But rather, we need to be those who allow the Holy Spirit to work in us to change the hearts and minds of those surrounding us; that is how social change works in the Kingdom. Let’s listen to Jesus and do things His way, forsaking violence and anger. Let’s work towards peace.

Connect with John Krueger on

• Practical Christology

• TikTok

Episode Timestamps:

1:27 – Who is John Krueger?

• From Columbus, Ohio

  • Grew up attending church

• 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 stood out

  • Paul writes about grace

• Journey to anarchism

  • Read Blue Like Jazz

    • Jesus was not a republican or a conservative

    • Became politically independent

  • Eventually considered voting

    • Began researching libertarianism

      • Clicked with his understanding of the Grace of God

  • Took a few more years to become an anarcho-capitalist

8:58 – Libertarians, drugs, and terrorists

• It’s easy to understand decriminalizing marijuana 

• Harder to understand decriminalizing heroin use

  • People shouldn’t be locked in a cage for it

  • People should be free to make their own choices

    • Provided they aren’t hurting others

• Osama Bin Laden needed Jesus

  • Not bombs

  • We can’t bomb people into peace

    • If we bomb all sinners, there will be no one left

• John and Craig let go of the war stuff last

  • The history of the Middle East is important

  • The US is still at war

    • More people are mad at the US for continuously bombing them

• Jesus said in His Kingdom:

  • You rule by washing feet

    • Only pagans lord it over their subjects

  • But instead, our “Christian Nation” goes to war

    • To spread democracy

• We don’t need the government for roads

• We don’t need police

• Losing friends because of speaking out about:

  • Getting troops home

  • Veteran suicides

  • Broken men and families

  • Sending the poor to fight a rich man’s war

20:11 – Craig and John considered joining the military

• Craig wanted to kill people out of anger after 911

  • Application rejected

    • 4 pounds over the weight limit

• John wanted to join the military because he felt powerless

  • Wanted to be great in battle - like David

  • Experienced God’s compassion for those killed on both sides

• Christians still justify war and killing

  • Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father

  • There is nothing about Jesus’ life that says you can kill in war

• Pacifism is the way for Christians

  • Craig still gets a hard time from Christians for his pacifist stance

  • The early church was 100% pacifist

    • Even to their own deaths

  • Jesus healed the Roman soldier and admonished Peter

    • When Jesus disarmed Peter, he disarmed every Christian

26:24 – Libertarians and Gun Control

• After shootings those on the left talk about taking away guns

• But guns will be taken away by force

  • Giving more power to the state

• Need to study history

• We don’t advocate for gun control

  • It’s enforced by violence

  • We should bear God’s peace instead

• The left sees calls to reduce state size as calls to let people starve

• John does not own guns, 

  • Only advocates for less government action

• We don’t use the state for any reason

• The same people who take guns away are those who shoot unarmed black men

• Fines are enforced through the threat of violence

• The ‘hero’ who ended the life of a would-be shooter still ended a life

• Jesus would not be training churches to enact violence

• We are here to bring the gospel to people

37:10 – From angry An-Cap to peaceful Christian Anarchist

• When John was an An-Cap he was angry at the state

  • Police killings made him angry

  • Made him want to get into guns

• Angry at government shutdowns because of shutdowns

• Holy Spirit showed him it would be better to defy the government in peaceful ways

  • Sneakily helping people

  • Blessing those who curse

  • Not needing to worry about what to say in front of judges

• Libertarians are never happy with the government

  • No matter who is in power they are stuffing everything up

  • Anger is not the fruit of the spirit

• Romans 11-14 need to be read together

  • Our heart position should be peaceful

• Libertarians need Jesus to have the full picture

42:48 – Romans 13 and libertarianism

• “Submit” and “obey” are not the same

  • When Christians get it wrong: 

    • They end up supporting government atrocities

    • Lives will be ruined

    • The state becomes an idol

• The early church withheld communion from people who worked for the state

  • Unless people were already soldiers

    • And had sworn off killing or oppressing people

    • None wore their weapons

    • All were to serve

• Getting Christians into power will not help

  • It is no longer Christianity

• The power is the wrong power

  • The Holy Spirit is the only power we need

  • Political power is force

  • Christians do not need to take the ”Seven Mountains” of power

  • These do not sound like Jesus

• Polycarp would not denounce Jesus

  • In the face of his own death

  • King Jesus has never done me any harm

• Everything that the state does harms somebody in some fashion

  • If they are helping you, they are harming someone else

  • The state is not a protector

• Jesus Christ is the only King

  • He wants the best for us

54:12 – How should we pray for government?

• We should pray for government and leaders

  • Craig prays for the state to end

  • The current chaos is caused by the state

  • We need to follow Jesus and walk away

  • John prays for leadership to know the gospel

    • Not the American folklore

    • But the true gospel

• Craig will take the words of the early church fathers over pastors

  • When modern pastors disagree with the early church

  • They still screwed things up

  • They aren’t Jesus

  • They were closer in time to Jesus

  • We need to get back to that

    • What we are doing now as the church is not working

• The Reformers had a blind spot when it came to the church

  • They killed people

• The Anabaptists became the Mennonites and Amish

  • They were peaceful

• Catholics are going back to mysticism

  • The church fathers and grace teachings

1:02:54 – Let’s bring it back to Jesus

• Listen to Jesus

  • Love your neighbor

  • Love your enemy

  • Love God

• It’s impossible to follow His teachings

  • But we should try:

    • Working towards good

    • Not working toward violence

    • Not working towards anger or hate

    • Working towards peace

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68. Tyrants be Gone with Duncan Palmer

About this Episode

The Kingdom of God is at hand! Duncan Palmer joins Craig for a discussion of what the Good News entails and a key point that Christians are missing today: The Kingdom of God is here and now. Poor Bible translations go all the way back to Augustine, leading God’s people into confusion about their purpose. For example, ‘ecclesia’ is often rendered ‘church’ in modern translations, whereas a better translation refers to a gathering or assembly of people who managed the local city. The only God-ordained governance structure is the ecclesia, which happens when the church willingly submits to servant leadership and God’s laws alone. 

Craig and Duncan discuss the historical points where the church went wrong, then turn to Duncan’s article “Tyrants be Gone: Say Hello to the New Boss”. There are no good guys in the fiefdoms of Satan; even your favorite candidate is nothing more than a tinpot tyrant playing with authority that does not belong to him. No human being is given authority to rule over another. Therefore, instead of participating in politics, Christians are to opt out, declare independence, and make worldly governments obsolete. When we do, we will usher in the Kingdom of God. We need to be creating things of value helping and encouraging each other, and trading amongst ourselves. Jesus invites us to live freely in this voluntary society. He welcomes us into the Kingdom of God! This is the missing part of the Good News!

Duncan’s article

Duncan’s Hive Blog Articles

Episode Timestamps:

2:25 – Introduce Duncan’s article

• Well shared in the discussion group

• Written so that people can get a glimpse of what the good news really is

3:33 – Who is Duncan Palmer?

• Grew up in America in the 50s and 60s

  • Heard that America was the freest country in the world

  • Republican family background

• Supported Ron Paul when he ran for office

• In the 90s, Duncan realised he was being extorted for tax money

  • Not as free as he thought

  • Taxation is a fraudulent system

• Learned from Larken Rose

  • Book: The Most Dangerous Superstition

  • Podcast: Outside the Cage

  • Not a believer but has a lot to say to Christians about neighbourly love and oppression

7: 11 – The importance of language

• Duncan uses the label anarchist

• Bad Bible translations are of the devil

• The Bible is misquoted, mistranslated, and misread

• Get back to the basic teachings of Christ

• Duncan’s definition of anarchist:

  • No human rulers  

  • God is the only legitimate ruler

  • He is a benevolent ruler

  • A Christ-archist or Thearchist

• The enemy has taken the term ‘anarchist’ and perverted its definition

  • It doesn’t mean bomb throwing radicals out to destroy everything

  • Words ought to be our servants, not the other way around

• Voluntaryist

  • The Kingdom of God is based on voluntary interactions

    • Radically different from the kingdoms of the world

  • The ‘kings’ of this world have no legitimate authority

• The early church lived in a voluntary society

  • Anarchism and Christianity should be synonymous 

14:16 – The church is in bed with the state

• Learning the history of the church

• Craig has become fascinated by church history

  • Prior to Constantine

  • This is how the church should behave today too

  • They had their own disagreements

  • Universally recognized Jesus as King

  • Tertullian believed in Eternal Conscious Torment

  • Tertullian was vocal about the state

  • Some of the early church writers were taught directly by the apostles

    • Polycarp

    • The church has gone in the opposite direction of these writings

• Ecclesia – The gathering of people who managed the local city

• Duncan is reading through the New Testament in Greek

  • Trying to get the whole picture

  • Major points:

    • Ecclesia – church is a poor translation

    • Gathering, assembly or congregation might be better options

    • The church should guide the local population rather than the worldly institutions

• David Bently Hart

  • New Greek New Testament Translation of the Bible

  • Augustine translated the Bible from Latin not Greek

  • There are differences that change the meaning of the text

  • Mistranslations are being taught in the church

• 1 Corinthians 1:26 – Not too many bright believers verse

• The Curmudgeons Bible Library

  • Complaints about poor Bible translations

22:20 – How Duncan became a Christian Anarchist

• The state lies to everyone and imposing an illegal income tax

• The Law – Frederic Bastiat

  • Recommended reading

  • Very thin

  • Made Duncan realise that the only law that we should respect is God’s law

    • More than 400 instances of the word ‘law’ in the Bible maybe only a dozen of them reference human made laws.

    • Man-made laws are always spoken of with disdain

    • Romans 13:1 refers to God’s law not human mandates

• Christians are afraid of the other team, so they resort to using the state

26:52 - The church has gone wrong at a few historical points:

• Constantine co-opted the church

  • The church is to replace and obviate the rule of Satan on earth

•  Replacing the commandments of God with the traditions of men

  • During the Reformation

    • The Reformation did not go far enough

    • Reformers divided the world into ecclesiastical governments and civil government

    • A better distinction is the Kingdom of God and Fiefdoms of Satan

    • Civil government is seen as legitimate and desirable

    • Throughout scripture those structures are Satan’s government systems

    • Evil and influenced by demons

    • The church should be separate from those structures 

    • Jesus refused the authority that Satan tempted him with

    • The early church recognised this

• The Empire of the United States is crumbling

  • Current trajectory is unsustainable

  • Christians need to be ready for this

  • It is going to be chaotic and scary

  • If we follow Jesus everything will be fine

  • Secular anarchists could learn from Christians

  • It’s too exhausting to keep wasting time arguing about going back to the Mises Caucus

32:02 - The church should act as God’s new governance structure

• The Bible is a handbook for governance

• The only authority God grants the church is directly going to our brother, or bringing others into an argument or bringing conflicts before the whole ecclesia from where they may be ejected

• There is nowhere left to go when looking for somewhere where liberty can be found

• Seasteading: the idea that people could build communities out in the ocean

  • Out of the fiefdoms of Satan

  • We are supposed to be denying territorial jurisdictions

  • We are to be a Holy nation from every tribe and nation

  • Our common ruler Jesus is to be our common ground

• The good news of the Kingdom has been abandoned

  • John and Jesus preached it

  • There’s a new boss in town

  • We need to take power and authority to deny the tyrants around us

37:34 – Tyrant be Gone. Say hello to the New Boss

• The church is misunderstood

  • What we have now is not what was supposed to be

• There’s a new boss in town

• We’ve done a marginal job of letting people know who King Jesus is

  • We’ve misdirected everyone sitting in pews into worshipping the state

    • Romans 13 is mistranslated

    • Use as a bludgeon on the head of believers

    • Teaching to do everything as the government says to do it

  • Let every soul be subject to the highest authorities, namely God and His Word

    • The only true authority

• The government will be upon His shoulders

  • Is Afghanistan or China upheld by Jesus?

  • Christians seem to think that America is the good guy

    • Patently not true given all the overseas deaths caused by foreign policy

41:53 – There are no good guys at all in the fiefdoms of Satan

• The sooner the church realises that Jesus is in the process of destroying those fiefdoms the better

• The right number of Christians in office won’t make things better

• George W Bush said God wanted him to run for office

  • 9 months later the never-ending war began

• Ambassadors do not participate in government

  • We are to be God’s ambassadors

• The missing part of the good news of the Kingdom of God

  • The church pushes news of the Kingdom into some distant future

  • Whereas it should be here and now

• America is not your friend

  • America is not a saviour

  • It is destruction

46:34 - Aren’t you sick and tired of tyrants?

• Even your favourite candidate is a tyrant

• Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results

• People are scared of the Democrats or Republicans

  • So, they put libertarians in office

  • They are still putting someone in power over their brothers and sisters

    • Jesus didn’t say to do that

    • You see how the gentiles lord it over them? It should not be so among you

• Satan likes to divide and conquer

  • Splitting people into camps to do battle with each other

• The only power they have is to rob, hurt and enslave

• God has not ordained or authorised the state to do that

  • This is a lie from the deepest pit of hell

  • Backed by demons

  • Christians need to walk away and follow Jesus

• In light of Romans 13 how do you read Acts 5?

  • There are two different definitions of submission and obedience

  • There are a lot of poorly understood words

• The Bible calls for leadership that we voluntarily follow rather than dictatorships

  • The only legitimate rules are God’s laws

    • These rules are written on our hearts

    • Respect the scriptures, but don’t slavishly check every move we make

    • Follow Jesus’ law of love

• The calling as the assembly is to step out of the world, voluntarily submit to servant leadership in the church

• We are not to participate in the failed kingdoms of this world

  • Even the US is based on satanic principles

  • Instead become a decentralized replacement governance system

  • Acknowledge King Jesus and deny allegiance to any other jurisdiction

• People are not understanding this

• How do we make people see that the state is evil, and we should abstain from it?

• Comparison chart that shows principles that the state runs on versus what the ecclesia should be running on.

• Libertarian philosophy states we should not initiate violence

  • The state runs on violence

  • Violence in defence might have legitimate value

    • When providing for one’s own household

• No human being or group have legitimate rights to rule over other humans

  • Satan said in his heart that he would be like God

    • Ruling over people

    • Taking the place of God

  • People may rule over creation, but never other human beings

    • Only Jesus holds this right as creator

  • The state is committing the same crime as Satan

    • Asserting that they have the right to arbitrarily dictate to us what we must do

55:06 – Implementing God’s Kingdom

• Entering God’s Kingdom means we leave the kingdoms of the world

  • Leave them in the dustbin

  • Establish something superior

  • Make them obsolete

  • This is what it means to seek first the Kingdom of God

• Humanity will be drawn towards their true King when we do this

• Opt out of the state

  • And everything else will be added to you

• The church seems to have missed this important part of the good news the Kingdom of God

• The assembly needs to stop viewing the assembly as purely spiritual

  • Ecclesia is not a spiritual social club

• We need to be God’s Kingdom in this world

  • We need to be creators in this world

    • We reflect God when we create things of value

• We need to encourage each other through our occupations

• We need to help one another provide for our families

• Trade with one another

  • We need solid ‘weights and measures’ like Bitcoin

  • We need our own economic system

  • We need to encourage each other’s endeavours, such as the Bad Roman Project

    • Helping to expand God’s Kingdom in the world

• We need to encourage each other’s development in writing and the arts

  • We need to do these in the name of God

  • We need to help each other

• There is no church/state separation where churches are 501 C3 corporations

  • The church becomes subservient to Satan himself

• We need to declare our independence

  • Shelter our members from taxation and state depravations

• We need to be encouraging entrepreneurism 

  • Establishing enterprises

  • Bringing wealth into the Kingdom

    • Use the wealth to advance God’s Kingdom

• We need to declare independence from territorial jurisdiction

• Covid made it clear that the state is out to shut the church down

  • We need to push back

• We need more Christian podcasters flooding the arena with this

• Jesus’ generous offer is still available to us

  • Let those who are thirsty come

  • Take the water of life without cost

1:02:37 – 1 Timothy 6: 11-17

• Paul says to Timothy:

  • Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love and steadfastness

  • He ties that good confession in with Jesus

• Jesus confessed before Pontius Pilate that His Kingdom is not of this world

• Jesus is the blessed and only sovereign, the King of Kings

• He dwells in unapproachable light

• He holds a branch of peace to His enemies

  • He hasn’t crushed them under His feet yet

• We need to be the assembly that draws people to Him

• Jesus says we can come and be a part of this voluntary society

  • We can live totally free

  • Jesus the only worthy ruler

  • He continues to bless us

• We just need to trust Jesus

• We have an eternity of God’s kindness to look forward to

  • And an entire universe to explore

  • A childlike wonder about the vastness of God and His creation

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67. What do gambling and voting have in common? with Paul Varkey

About this Episode

Craig is joined by Paul Parayil for his first-ever podcast appearance. Through his prolific and provocative writings, Paul advocates for liberty, truth, honesty, and the Kingdom of God. His blog and Facebook posts have garnered quite a following. In this episode, they discuss Paul's article, "Do you believe Gambling is a vice? I don't think you do". In the article, Paul grabs the attention of the evangelical right audience and shows how Christians engage in high-stakes gambling on something worse than cards. Fear produces voting, but just like casino gambling, the house (or the state) always wins.

When the church condones the state's violence, it fails to align with people's consciences, becoming a stumbling block. However, the church will find itself more attractive when Christians promote Jesus's basic teachings of self-governance and doing no harm. We use the term Christian Anarchist because a core component of Christianity has been lost. Instead, that which should be an obvious and natural occurrence in the church must be emphasized. Anarchy is implied, and the entire gospel message is summed up in one sentence: No King but Christ. 

Since the beginning of the church, we have had one King. Jesus never sought political office! It is morally inconsistent of us to believe we have the right to coerce our neighbors with political power gained through participation in state activities, be they politics or voting. We are more consistent with Jesus's actions when we serve from the fringes of society with love and charity. The beginning of the healing of this world is through peacefully walking away from the gamble that is voting.

Paul's social media: 

• FB Page: https://www.facebook.com/paul.varkey , 

• Hive blog

Episode Timestamps:

1:15 Introduce Paul

• Enjoys writing 

  • Initially, to clarify his own thoughts

  • Found others enjoy thinking outside the box and reading his writings

• Often interacting in various Christian Anarchist circles

• Family originally from India 

  • A family of practicing Christians 

  • When Paul was three, his parents immigrated to the Middle East (Saudi Arabia) and lived there until he graduated from high school

  • Christmas holidays were spent visiting family in India

• Education

  • Graduated high school in Saudi Arabia

  • Went back to India for college

  • Moved to the US as a graduate student in 2004

  • Moved to California to work as a software engineer in 2011

  • Been working in Tech since then

5:45 How did Paul come to Christian anarchy?

• Brought up as Christians in Saudi Arabia.

• Moved to Chicago at 21 years old

  • Began thinking about politics

  • Knew he was pro-life because it's a matter that evangelicals care about

  • Became a republican quickly

• Knew that his support for GOP was tribalism  

• Heard of Ron Paul and what he had to say about:

  • The Fed

  • The Military-Industrial Complex, https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/social-sciences/military-industrial-complex 

  • Regulatory capture of the big corporations

• Provoked into considering the logical inconsistency of his own beliefs 

  • Began looking into political libertarianism

  • Kicked and screamed for a few years into anarchy 

• Was not aware of Christian anarchism 

  • A closet Christian Anarchist 

  • No one to fellowship with

  • Craig also had a similar experience until he came across the Anarcho Christian Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/645893438920507 

10:15 What is Christian Anarchism?

• The early church were anarchists 

  • Including Jesus 

• No title; the word didn't exist

  • But they practiced it

  • It was an obvious part of being a Christian

    • Do you tell people that you are a "virgin birthist"? 

    • There's no need to specify because most Christians believe in it

    • So it was with Christian anarchy in the early church 

  • A core message has been lost of how the kingdom of God works with nations here

• We've lost an essential message of the gospel, so we must use the label to emphasize it

• It's okay to disagree with others

  • Secular anarchists

  • Or even Paul of Tarsus

• It's more important to follow Jesus than anarchy

15:35 No King But Christ 

• Essentially communicates the whole gospel message 

  • While implying anarchy

• How are secular anarchists preaching better moral truths than the church? 

• Anarcho Christian Facebook group:

  • Don't all agree on Christian doctrines

  • They at least agree on the anarchist outlook

• More people seem to be latching onto anarchy

  • Self-rule

  • Do no harm

  • Don't take my things

  • Follow the basic teachings of Christ

• Voluntaryism doesn't trigger Christian minds to think of chaos.

• In the right-leaning "Christian" culture, there is an identification of patriotism and nationalism as the proper practicing of faith

20:30 Paul pokes the bear to make people think.

• The biggest tragedies of the church: 

  • We lost the concept of No King But Christ 

  • Colluding with the state

  • In both the Eastern Christian and Western church circles

  • We have compromised our values

22:46 Read Paul’s Article: "Do you believe Gambling is a vice? I don't think you do."

• Grabbing the attention of the evangelical right

  • It's addressed to people who think gambling is a vice or sin

• There is a loser in gambling

  • There is also a winner; it's always the house

• In the casino, most of the participants frequently lose

  • Some participants win big, keeping people hooked

  • The only one who wins is the house.

• Gambling is a vice because you produce no real wealth, 

  • One of us is poorer based on luck

  • There is nothing godly about this

• There is something far worse than gambling 

  • Christians engage in it regularly 

  • This form of gambling has a house, and the house always wins.

• When you vote, you wager your own life and liberties and securities.

  • Cannot recover lost freedoms back from the state through voting

  • You legitimize the beast through voting

29:05 What is voting?

• The state says, "Come along. All of you will lose some liberties, but some of you will have the chance to have less of your liberties taken."

• Fear takes over when people vote

• There are more than two people to choose from

31: 48 What is the state?

• Takes people's liberties

• Has never once shrunk

  • States grow or collapse.

• Taking the chance and succumbing to fear keeps the house growing

  • Yet people vote for candidates they don't like

• The idea of your "civic duties" being to vote is ridiculous

• "Go vote" is a religious mantra

• It doesn't matter to the elites who wins

  • The aura of the legitimacy of the beast improves when people show up to vote

  • Republicans are Democrats 2.0

  • Don't put others in power over your neighbours

36:00 God alone gives liberty 

• Jesus sets us free, not the US

  • There may be some good outcomes from voting

    • God makes good come from evil

• Paul's moral analysis of voting is the reason he doesn't

  • I don't have the right to dominate my neighbour

    • No coercing them to behave the way I want

    • Unlikely to bring more liberty

    • It's still a gamble

• Anarchists joining libertarian parties promote the state

39.00 Why don't Christians just walk away?

• One solution to the problems of government

  • Peacefully walk away

  • Christians should know this and opt out

• The empire is falling and we already have a King

  • Power will corrupt

  • You will lose while growing the state

• If someone is addicted to any addictive substance, they cannot go cold turkey

  • Voting gives a dopamine hit

  • If you feel the need to vote, at least vote for a third party

  • Take other political actions 

• The Libertarian parties will never take over the state

  • Their message is good

• Paul does more good outside of political processes 

  • Being morally consistent with his beliefs

• If anyone was going to change the US system, it would have been Ron Paul

  • You cannot change the mafia from the inside 

  • The point of the mafia is to be the mafia

  • Ron Paul changed awakened people https://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/ron-paul-5118.php 

• Voting is a risk; why not simply obey Jesus Christ?

• When Satan tempted Jesus with authority, He didn't rebuke Satan, telling him that the authority was not his to give. Instead, He said, "No, I'm good." https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%204%3A1-11&version=NIV 

• Likewise, Christians should say, "No, I'm good." 

  • rather than seek power

  • Seek Jesus as our King

• The early church writings show:

  • They had no interest in the Roman Empire 

  • Tertullian called the affairs of the state foreign https://quotepark.com/authors/tertullian/quotes-about-the-world/

  • The kingdom of God is a literal Kingdom

  • Their King did not use a sword against Caesar and Pilot 

  • They expanded the kingdom through love, charity, and service

  • From outside the system

• Christians can enrich anarchism with the teachings of Christ

---

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Related Blog Post

66. To Vote or Not to Vote with Stephen of Anarcho-Christian

About this Episode

Stephen is from Anarcho-Christian, our brother-in-Christ podcast. He has spent the last 6 years providing an online presence and community for people like us. He has a way of expressing many viewpoints on a hotly debated topic, so we’ve invited him into our conversation on voting. 

Midterms are fast approaching. As people who serve only one King, we must consider whether we ought to participate in the kingship of others. Is it ever justifiable to participate in choosing laws and rulers for our neighbors? How involved should an anarchist really be in politics? How involved should a Christian be? Is there a difference? Listen for our take on these and other questions relating to the issue.

Episode Timestamps:

1:45 Unbiased

• Not like Fox news

  • “We report; you decide

    • (what we tell you because everything we put out is incredibly biased)”

• Debating this is good, but not on this episode

  • Discuss and let people reach their own conclusions

  • Easier said than done because of strong opinion

    • Christians should have nothing to do with voting

3:07 Facebook page disappeared

• Because they were getting too popular?

  • Facebook didn’t like their message

• Flagged unspecified memes

• No power or tools to fight back

  • Just had to wait

  • Found a workaround

• Bad Roman page is not allowed to boost posts

  • When Craig is drunk, he approves of Nate’s ornery memes

    • Then Craig gets in trouble with

      • Facebook

      • And the show producer

        • Can’t go too far with posts because losing Facebook means losing access to the majority of the fan base

• Don’t want to lose what so much work has gone into

• Having AnarchoChristian back on Facebook takes some of the heat off Bad Roman

8:14 Should anarchists vote?

• Is voting consistent with anarchist philosophy?

• Some people separate Christianity and anarchy

  • Others feel it’s entwined

  • Stephen came to anarchy by growing in his faith

• What’s the intent of voting?

• What are you voting on?

  • Is it federal or is it about your local library?

    • We don’t usually get to vote on community-level decisions

• Some anarchists wind up back in the libertarian party 

  • Saying they’re trying to get a message out

    • Seems inconsistent to be in politics

  • You can reach people within the party without joining the party

• Pulling out of politics almost feels like joining a monastery

  • Away from the evils of the world 

  • Never going back

  • Putting faith entirely on God 

    • Instead of faith in God plus worrying about whether the more evil guy wins the election

    • Good for mental health

• Defensive political action vs action to bring good

• Some people believe they can wield the power to bring about God’s Kingdom

• Maybe it’s a neutral decision

  • Maybe it’s okay to take political action

  • And maybe it’s just as okay not to

19:36 Should Christians get involved in politics?

• Should we peacefully protest everything?

• Even “setting people free” from the slavery of the current political system

  • Is slavery

    • Because they didn’t have a choice

• The motivation to vote is that our country is like a train

  • The 2 current parties are competing to send the train over the cliff faster

  • The libertarian party might at least be able to slow it down

  • Other people would rather let it crash and burn

    • We can rebuild better and faster

    • Why focus on something that is doomed?

    • “Empires fall; let it burn” - Craig

• Ron Paul actually did make a difference with his presidential campaign

  • He got involved to get a message out

  • Converted a good number of people to libertarianism

    • Directly and by starting a chain of influence

  • Got them involved with each other

  • Many have since converted to anarchism

  • Most normies will listen to a political candidate before a random dude’s libertarian podcast

• But he also proved that the mafia cannot be changed from the inside

  • Why should anarchists try to change it by voting or involvement when even the great Ron Paul failed?

  • The Republican party blocked him from succeeding

• At this point, 

  • People are frustrated with the government’s response to COVID-19

  • They see the immorality

  • They see the flaws of a 2-party system

  • Inflation is affecting them

  • If someone were to get up and speak to them from a political stage, they might move toward anarchy

29:26 Christian anarchy

• The early church was anarchist

  • So was Jesus

• The word ‘Christian’ has come to imply ‘anarchist’ to Craig

  • Because it’s obviously how we’re supposed to be

  • Voting for someone to rule over your neighbor is not justifiable

    • Jesus said Christians will not lord it over each other

    • We come to serve, not be served

• “As a Christian, what do you think is moral about going and trying to put somebody in power over your neighbor?” - Craig

• We have to understand that people don’t yet understand

  • They don’t grasp the monopoly on violence or voluntarism

  • They don’t speak our language or know what we’re referring to

• We must look at a person’s heart motive

  • Are they demanding a king to replace God?

    • Many Trump supporters are definitely putting their faith in their president

    • Republican is synonymous with Christian

    • People put way too much of their identity in politics 

      • And mix it with religion

  • If, in 1 Samuel, God says choosing a king is rejecting Me

    • Is voting for rulers now rejecting God?

    • Is it a sin to vote?

  • Is a person voting defensively or in an attempt to change the world for good?

    • Their focus would seem to not be on getting a king

• Defensive voting

  • Asking permission to not be taxed

  • Still gives the ruler power

• Empires fall

  • The US empire is going down

    • There’s no point in trying to save it

  • We’re creating money out of thin air, constantly increasing our debt

  • People get freaked out by outside forces coming to harm us

    • We’re already being harmed

• Inflation

  • Didn’t start with Biden

  • Trump pumped $2 trillion of fake money into our economy

  • People generally blame the government

    • But they don’t know what they’ve specifically done to cause the problem

    • It’s the printing of money without anything behind it

    • It’s taxes and tariffs

  • Propaganda

    • Inflation is good!

    • It’s all Putin’s fault!

    • Nobody could have seen this coming!

  • Anarchists are generally more aware of what is actually happening

• 2-party system

  • Taught, “We have to beat these guys cuz they’re the worst.”

    • Pick the lesser of 2 evils

  • People want to get someone perfect in who will 

    • Shut down the Department of Education or the CIA

    • Fulfill their dreams

    • Make everything better

    • The system will never allow them to win

  • Small changes have occurred

    • But nothing that will stop the train

• 50% of the country doesn’t vote

  • We’re halfway there!

  • People get nervous

    • If we stop, then our enemy will win the election

      • So, maybe if we all jump to the third party, we can beat them all

      • And maybe we can use the system to tackle local issues

• All politicians will lie or make exceptions at some point

  • Power corrupts

  • Even Ron Paul voted us into war

  • People might get into politics with good intentions

    • But when you’ve joined the mafia, you’re part of the mafia

    • Unrelated projects slipped into bills

  • Same with cops

    • Gotta make compromises to avoid getting fired

  • One could go in with the intent of causing a ruckus and not care about re-election

    • But it’s unlikely

    • And what kind of difference could it really make?

49:48 Roe v Wade and other big decisions

• So many people are celebrating

• It feels nefarious

• Government promises of good

  • Almost always have something bad attached

  • Even if it really is good for one group

    • It hurts someone else

    • Or hurts everyone in a different realm of life

• Printing money seems great

  • Until a year later when inflation skyrockets

53:26 Just keep following Jesus

• “Christ set us free, not the United States of America.” - Craig

• He has our best interest at heart

  • Guaranteed, the state does not

---

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54. Waging Peace: Seeing God Before the Resurrection with Jason Porterfield

About this episode

Author and self-proclaimed ‘aspiring peacemaker,’ Jason Porterfield, returns to the show to walk Bad Roman co-hosts, Craig Harguess and Abby Cleckner, through his new book, Fight Like Jesus: How Jesus Waged Peace Throughout Holy Week.  

Come Spring we tend to look straight to Easter, to the miracle of the resurrection, but just how much do we miss when we forget the why and how of what led up to Christ’s crucifixion? By taking an in-depth look at each day in the final week of Jesus’ life, Jason’s book is a guide and game-changer for any Christian who still thinks Jesus died to protect us from a wrathful God. 

God is love! He is not a hammer or sword-wielding warrior, but a force of mercy, humility, and reckoning. How often do we forget this today? How often do we use the bible to justify violent means to imagined peaceful ends? 

“Jesus used a whip in the temple”

“Jesus told them to take swords”

“Jesus said render unto Caesar”

How many of our enemies must we fight or destroy to create peace? How many verses must we take out of context to justify our sin? Peter was scolded for his violence and we remain under the same command to disarm. 

To build the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, to try to love one another and our enemies in the way Christ set forth is a radical position to take both in Jesus’s time and now. Holy Week is crucial to understanding how God’s love works. It is through those days we see and experience Jesus’s message and example in action. 

This episode is a challenge to you to look at yourself, your actions, and if they reflect what you think you believe. It can be easy to think we are on the right side of the resurrection, that we, of course, are on the side of Jesus, but it is just as easy to fail to see we are the ones plotting against the way of peacemaking, that we are the ones holding the hammer over our savior on the cross. We invite you to listen with an open mind, to humble yourself to the folly we all are susceptible to fall into in the midst of miracles. 

If you want to learn more about Jason’s work and message you can connect with him on his website, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram.

Episode Timestamps:

2:15 Episode #14 Fight Like a Christian with Keith Giles and Jason 

3:20 Motivation for writing Fight Like Jesus: How Jesus Waged Peace Throughout Holy Week  

• Failing as a peacemaker

• How do you Love your enemy and neighbor when your enemy is oppressing your neighbor

• Holy week is when we see Jesus enacting all he has said as an active peacemaker

8:08 Why was Jesus shedding tears?

• Passover

• Pontius Pilate

• Hosana translates to “save us now”

• Palm Branches - politically loaded symbols of rebellion

  • Judas Maccabeus

14:16 Christians waging/supporting war vs. living out teachings of Jesus

• Jesus comes back as lamb not warrior

• Revelations 6

19:30 Monday - Jesus Cleansing the Temple

• Ched Myers

  • Jesus returns with planned, calculated action, not rash “temple fit”

• John’s mention of whip used to justify violence by Christians

  • St. Augustine

  • John Calvin, having Servetus put to death

  • Bernard of Clairvaux

• Did Jesus whip people?

  • No, it was more of shooing animal whip - not an instrument of torture

• Catholic Theologian Raymond Brown

  • Whip material was likely animal bedding materials

• John 2:15 

  • Greek translation reveals ‘tu’ modifies all to be sheep and cattle, i.e. John is clarifying who he is using the whip on

• Jesus was not passive in the face of injustice, he was an active pacifist

  • Jesus’s zeal does not destroy, it opens up more for everyone 

  • After the cleansing those who were excluded were invited in

31:32 Tuesday (part 1) - Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and God what is God’s

• Mark 12

• Jesus uses the word “repay” vs. “pay”

  • He switches the verb of the question, which requires you to answer the question of what belongs to God and what belongs to Cesar? 

• Did Jesus’s supporters hear (misinterpret) something else in “pay back” what is owed?

• Jesus leaves people with more questions than answers - makes you think

36:51 Tuesday (part 2) - The 7 Woes

• Speaking truth to power or using authority/power to bash and crush others?

• Easier to see ourselves on the side or Jesus vs. Pharisees

 38:18 Wednesday - Eye of the Hurricane, Quiet Day with  'Backroom Deals’ 

• Jewish leaders scheme to murder Jesus

  • Caiaphas and The Sanhedrin 

• Judas excepting price to betray Jesus

• Unnamed woman

  • First to anoint Jesus as messiah 

• USA Bombing of Cambodia

  • Khmer Rouge 

• Fictional future to justify a present means

 45:10 Thursday (Part 1) - The New Command

• Love each other as I have loved you

  • New standard of love he set in how to love

• What is true evangelism?

  • Living and being the community of God so others can experience it

  • Make others curious about your life by how much you love God 

• 1 Peter 2 

• Faciniation precedes explanation

51:30 Thursday (Part 2) - The Two Swords (Gun Culture)

• Jesus healed the roman soldier harmed by Peter

• Not “time is not right” but “time is never right” attitude to violence

• Two swords allow them to appear as a violence mob, but then reject that violence as an example

• Disciples fled when Jesus revoked Peter’s violence  

  • They were ready to fight for a new king

59:10 Friday - Understating the Crucifiction 

• Did Jesus die to save us from God?

• Fear of God vs. Love of Christ

• Comparison and choice of Jesus (Peaceful nonviolent) or Barabbas (the violent insurrectionist Messiah)

  • They chose person who would fight and crucified Jesus

• Peacemakers cultivate the future Jesus promised

  • Do the work, stop waiting for Jesus to come back and solve all of the problems

• We are passive in our violence

1:09:00 The Resurrection

• Eschatology

  • Understanding of how things end

• Sunday’s Resurrection - symbolized the end we seek is starting to be lived out

• Early church decided to live out the future now

  • Model the way of Jesus

• Dave Andrews

  • “On our best days we’ll approximate the kingdom of God on earth and on our worst days we’ll  parody and mimic kingdom of God”

---

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45. Radically Following Jesus with Shane Claiborne

In this episode, Shane Claiborne joins us to talk about living like Jesus, abortion, gun violence, Christian nationalism, and whether we should get involved in politics as a way to help others live in freedom. 

We know the teachings of Jesus, but what does it look like to actually follow them? How can we care for other humans as God instructed, and how can we do that when we live amidst a corrupt and often unjust government? As Shane points out, “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen savior.” Our Lord was killed by the government. We should not trust in our rulers, but in Him, but, as Shane would argue, we can use their system to help people by getting bad policies changed.

Who is Shane Claiborne? He is a radical advocate for living as if Jesus really meant what He said. He heads up an intentional, simple-living Christian community called Red Letter Christians, and is the co-founder of The Simple Way, an intentional neighborhood-based Christian community in North Philadelphia. Shane has been to jail multiple times while advocating for the poor and against war. You can connect with him on his personal website, Twitter, email, and Instagram. 

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Timestamps:

1:26 What following Jesus looks like

• “Man, I was pretty together, met Jesus, and He messed me up.” -Shane

  • Teachings like

    • To be great, become the least

    • Love your enemies

    • Sell possessions and give to the poor

  • Started a community for local homeless people who were being evicted from a church. They

    • Fix up abandoned houses

    • Create gardens

    • Paint murals

    • Care for neighbors’ needs 

7:24 Pro-life or just anti-abortion?

• “We shouldn't be in other countries dropping bombs on people” -Craig

• One-issue voting is inconsistent

• Christians are the obstacle to progress

9:45 A Bible in one hand; a newspaper in the other

•  Know what's going on in the world around you

• “When you look at Jesus, He was talking about the Kingdom of God coming on Earth, as it is in Heaven. Not just something we go up to when we die, but something we bring down while we're alive.” - Shane

• Study the Bible and sociology together

11:41 Christian Nationalism

• Trump didn’t change the church; he revealed their true beliefs 

• “A lot of white Christians have been shaped more by whiteness than by Christ.” -Shane

• People use the Gospel to justify all kinds of atrocities

• Reconstructing the Gospel: Finding Freedom from Slaveholder Religion by Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

• Compare Trump and his policies to The Sermon on the Mount

• Christians betrayed Jesus with a kiss for a couple seats on the Supreme Court

• Welcome the stranger -- not because you're Republican or Democrat, but because you follow Jesus, and that is His example

• “A lot of times it's been more Fox news or a political party that's shaping our imagination than the Gospel” -Shane

• Christians wind up saying ugly things like that they want to go to the border and shoot people when they follow Trump instead of Christ

19:15 Nothing new

• People fear the transfer of power from white people

  • They want to take America back; to make it great again

    • To counteract any progress Black Lives Matter made

• Fear and love cannot occupy the same space 

  • “What would America look like if love rather than fear were compelling our policies and shaping our minds on a lot of these things?” -Shane

22:45 Debate: Do we need to get involved in politics to love our neighbor?

• Shane: Laws can either improve or destroy people's lives

  •  We need to work to get harmful laws changed for the good of our neighbor

• Craig: Politics are not our thing; we're of a different Kingdom

  •  Jesus didn't use politics to advance His agenda

• Shane: Opting out has consequences

  • We're not putting our hope in a politician; we’re voting to change policies that make life harder for our friends

  • Vote on behalf of those Jesus blessed

    • The poor, the mourning, the refugees, the incarcerated... 

  • Don't only help them through the ballot. Work every day for their freedom.

  • Fight for laws that make it harder to kill them

• Craig: Ballots don't do that. Voting doesn't change anything and doesn't help anyone.

• Shane: We should use every weapon we have; harness the principalities 

• Craig: Christians live on the fringes of society and shouldn't be involved in the system at all

• Shane: Moving to a community with black folks changed my perspective

  • Dr. King went to jail for political change 

  • “I do believe that the church is a primary instrument for God transforming the world.”

  • God can redeem the system using us

  • Legislation helps people flourish

    • We use it to keep people safe in cars; need for guns too

    • Jesus judges nations on how they cared for the poor

31:14 The early Church’s politics

• They were called atheists because they denied the deity of Rome

• They disrupted the empire by claiming another Emperor

• But Jesus didn’t kill anyone to overthrow the empire

  • He died.

  • And many details leading to His death can be seen as a parody to Caesar’s rule

• “If anybody should be suspicious of state power, it should be Christians who worship an executed and risen Savior.” - Shane

• Irreconcilable vocations

  • Brothel, executioner, anyone who had to kill for the state

    • Jesus said love your enemies, which means not killing them

• They were consistently against all violence

  • Abortion, execution, gladiators…

36:09 Living like Christians

• People use the Bible to justify terrible things

• We cannot live like a Christian and go against the teachings of Christ

• Gandhi wished we would. He liked Jesus, but was not a fan of the church

• We should view the entire Bible’s contents through the lens of Jesus 

39:13 Guns into Gardens Project; Beating Guns book

• Old Testament prophets speak of turning swords into plows

  • Similarly, turning guns into garden tools

    • And crosses

      • One says I want to kill; the other says I’m willing to die

    • And jewelry for victims of gun violence to wear and sell

  • People say it's not a gun problem; it's a heart problem

    • It's both

    • God transforms the heart; people transform the laws

  • Jesus should inspire us to protect life

42:04 The American Revolution

•   Claimed to be following God

  •  If they were, they never would have gone to war 

  • America began with guns. It's impossible to imagine our country without them

    • How else could they have started a country on stolen land with stolen labor?

42:56 Red-letter Christian Intentional Community

• A glimpse of Heaven on Earth

• Sharing everything in common end taking care of each other

• Reducing gun violence through:  

  • Hospitality

  • Drug addiction recovery

  • Lifting people out of the ditch

    • Figure out what's landing them in the ditch in the first place

      • It’s often government laws and policies

        • So we vote and advocate for change

• It'll probably land you in jail 

  • Charged with a felony for leaving water in the desert for immigrants 

  • Obey the good laws; disobey the bad ones

    • Expose how crazy they are by loudly getting in trouble 

    • A rich tradition of civil disobedience 

    • Be willing to suffer the consequences of exposing injustice

• Issues around the world

  • Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan…

    • Preemptive Love

• We spend more on the military than social uplift and are headed for spiritual death 

34. Divine Comedy with Jason Mock and Rodney Norman

Does God have a sense of humor? What is the role of comedy within society? Craig and Jason Mock are joined by comedian Rodney Norman for a fun(sometimes funny) conversation on comedy, politics, and Christianity. In this episode we are reminded of the importance and the power of joy and laughter. God wants us to be happy, to love one another and be joyous, but politics and fear can get in the way. Rodney helps us remember to laugh and to take life less seriously through comedy and a never ending curiosity. 

TIMESTAMPS AND STARTING POINTS:

00:22 Episode Intro

• Rodney Norman Video - A Sunday Sermon

02:20 Jason’s go to comics

• Mitch Headberg, Jim Gaffagan, Michael Junior

02:53 Rodney’s (fake) Background

• Member of Q

3:36 Rodney’s Real Background

• 20 years in comedy

• Alcoholic grandfather acts

• Philosophy

• Role of Comedian

• Nietzsche is big inspiration

5:57 Inspiration behind Sunday Sermon Video

• State of the world, battles of who is a “real christian”

• All comes down to treating others with love and respect - if we could do this, governments become unnecessary 

• Kill the idiots to stop idiots?

• Gospel isn’t about being right it’s about being nice and loving one another as ourselves

 8:38 Message of Jesus and how government blocks us from attaining the truth of the message

• It’s in our best interest to live in peace with one another

• How much power do you want to give anyone over your life?

• When you have a final authority, they’re the only authority

10:54 Why having more Christians in office won’t make things better

• Christians are called to the fringes of society the the centers of power

12:09 How Rodney uses comedy to spread the message of loving your neighbor

• Memory and emotional connections

• Comedy vs. fear mongering

• Censorship, manipulation, and control 

16:52 Untangling from the american media-political machine

• Faith in God vs. fear of finite political leaders

• Christ and stoicism

• Straw-God, we have watered down and oversimplified who God is and made him into an impossible version

22:22 Politics or WWE - which is more real?

25:22 Why the rise in comedians challenging the system, and how does it affect how Rodney sees the future or social media(censorship, maintaining audience, free speech ect.)

• Comedian is supposed to mock the things in the system to beat the system

• When social media creates taboo, it give the comedian more material

• Allegory and similes 

• Some are trying to be the smart guy vs. a comedian

• Lenny Bruce and George Carlin

• If your playing safe you're not getting anywhere

32:22 Social media and life

• Enjoy our lives vs. let others control it

33:25 Founders of America and what they fought for

• 3% tax

• Patrick Henry, George Mason\

• Oath of to protect Constitution to protect from “enemies foreign and domestic”

 36:21 Jesus was a snark

• Laughter as medicine

39:50 Comedy as medicine

• Bad Gigs Bad Bosses and Dealing with Life

45:17 Mitch Hedberg

• Jokes

• Working with him

48:43 Rodney’s Plugs

• Rodneynorman.com

• Youtube Channel

30. Anarchy in Action - A Look at Agorism with Joshua of Our Foundations Podcast

Is Agorism an ideal that meshes with the teachings of Christ? Are agorism and anarchism similar or are they distinct ideals?

In this episode, Craig talks with Joshua, founder of Our Foundations, a podcast focused on agorism and how it overlaps with Anarchism and true Christianity. Joshua explains how agorism looks in everyday life and how we might implement these principles within society. Joshua draws out the stark contrast in how the first Church, the Church of Jesus, functioned in comparison to how the Church, as a whole, functions today. What is a Freedom Cell and how might you utilize one in your everyday life? Not only does Joshua give us a lot to think about, here provides real-world examples of how he has overcome the challenges of living out Agorism...one of which is the Freedom Cell. 

Links & Starting Points:

1:29 Joshua’s Background 

• Started digging into economics, political theory, and Bible studies 

• learned about agorism and related it to political philosophy 

• started podcast

• anarchism: political philosophy 

• agorism: a way of life or applied radical libertarianism 

• Samuel Edward Konkin 3rd, SEK3

• grey and black markets

• red markets: anything involving violence, theft, war

11:00 In the kingdom of God this is our system within the system 

• impacting the state starts on a personal level 

• personal responsibility is both anarchism and Christianity 

• applying these principles in our own life so it can have a personal impact 

12:50. Examples from the early church

• settle disputes outside of court 

• Bible gives guidelines for settling disputes outside of the state 

• welfare is a personal and church responsibility 

• if modern Christians viewed the church the way they view the state things would be completely different 

• the church, as a whole, doesn’t exist the way Jesus intended 

20:20 Christians want to outsource responsibility to the state 

• it is a church on individual responsibility 

• society has been taught to obey and respect and authority without question: teacher, textbooks, experts 

31:20 Historical Patterns/Cycles 

• Vin Armani and the Dim Age 

• leaving material age, entering mystical age 

• spiritual focus 

• disregards fact of Bible or science 

• technology: cell phones, artificial intelligence, genetic therapy, MRNA vaccine 

• The Church is awakening a new religion. 

• going against it will and you will be ridiculed, fired, blacklisted 

• people are searching for spirituality 

• true Christianity is something that will fill the void

51:43 Agorism group and Freedom Cells

• Freedom Cell Network

• online platform for like-minded people to organize 

• a way to develop real local connections 

58:05 Joshua’s Plugs

• Freedom Cells Facebook: a decentralized system

• freedomcells.org

• Our Foundations podcast