About this episode
Keith Giles was once a pastor, but then he met Jesus. Now, he’s a theologian spreading the Gospel of love through several podcasts, including Heretic Happy Hour, Second Cup with Keith, and Threads, as well as numerous blog posts, and many books. In this episode of the Bad Roman podcast, Criag is once again joined by our beloved contributor, and Keith Giles fan, Abby Cleckner for a deep dive into the question that titles one of his articles, “What if Jesus isn’t Coming Back”?
The Church’s Christianity isn’t very Christ-like. The way Chrsitians behave is often influenced by their beliefs about the end of time. Keith joins us to talk through a blog post he wrote about the second coming of Christ, which led him to later pen the book called Jesus Unexpected. Jesus never intended for us to live in fear or anxiety, isn’t it time we start acting like Christians again, let’s turn the world on it’s head and be a force of love, peace, and joy once more.
Episode Timestamps:
1:55 Deconstruction
“I'm trying to get rid of some of the toxic teachings that I was receiving while I was in church.” - Craig
It’s hard to release things you hear every Sunday
Christians focus on Jesus coming back in our lifetime
Head in the clouds
Not following Jesus’ instructions; just waiting
It’s such a distraction from our mission
Jesus Unexpected – an expanded version of old blog post
So many shows and books about when Jesus is coming
“We're closer now than we've ever been before”
Predictions and countdowns
Counterproductive
Causes people to twiddle thumbs and wait for Him rather than solving problems
6:10 Research revelations
No one thought like this until 1830
The Early Church didn’t sit around waiting for Jesus
John Nelson Darby came out with rapture theology
Now, we have the basic outline of the end times story repeated in media
Charming antiChrist
A peace treaty with Israel
Temple rebuilt
Daily sacrifice reinstated
Treaty broken
Daily sacrifice undone
AntiChrist declares themself to be God
Puts Christians in concentration camps for refusing the 666 symbol
Jesus shows up and kicks ass
New Jerusalem comes down
Everyone sold their property and went up to the mountain to wait for Jesus
Nothing happened.
Seventh-Day Adventists stem from this group
“We assume that that version of the end times rapture that I just described was something handed to us by the apostles, but it isn't right.” - Keith
Keith's rebuttal to Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory
9:38 Craig waiting for Jesus
Working in newspaper printing
Would end up reading the paper as he worked to see if there were any signs of end times in the headlines
He was a Baptist, and some of his co-workers were Church of Christ
They had never heard of the rapture
Craig tried to tell them it was in the Bible that people would disappear and leave their clothes in a pile
11:15 The trauma of Left Behind
Keith
Would wake up at 2 am and check if his parents had been raptured without him
Some of his grown clients still do this
One guy came home to a pot of boiling water and a half-finished coloring page
His wife and daughter had run outside to catch the neighbor’s dog
But for a couple of minutes, he was convinced he had been left behind
So much fear
It's not healthy for the church
They terrified us as kids about eternal conscious torture
We lived in terror that our loved ones who didn't accept Jesus were going to Hell or would be left behind to deal with the Antichrist
God did not give us a spirit of fear (2 Timothy 1:7)
15:39 We can anticipate Christ’s return
Just not any minute now
We must continue loving our neighbor and following Christ’s commands
When it happens, it happens
People only predict it to make money
When they do and are wrong every time, it does not affect their credibility
They sell millions of copies of their books each time they make a new prediction
“Christians have this insatiable appetite. Revelation is the most confusing book in the Bible. Anyone that shows up and says, ‘Oh, I figured it out. I cracked the code. I know what it means. Everybody come to my conference, read my book, and go sign up for my video series. I'll explain the entire thing to you and I'll tell you what's going to happen.’ And we eat it up. People are desperate to know the future.” - Keith
When Jesus returns, people look forward to being right
18:17 Pharisitical mindset
The Pharisees missed Jesus because they were looking for a vindicator
Christians hope for the same: that He’ll destroy everyone who disagrees with them
And have a kingdom without the wrong people
It’s like people think Jesus did it wrong the first time
He’s gonna come back and fix it, and we just have to wait
When horrible things happen, people are glad He’s coming back to stop it
“If you know horrible things are happening in the world, we're here right now to be addressing those issues.” -Abby
21:39 Is it really about the end of the world?
Creation is not groaning for the second coming of Jesus, but for the sons of God to be revealed
That’s us
So many prophecies throughout the Bible are thought to be about the end of the world
The end of the age is not the end of the world; just the Jewish age
The temple and daily sacrifice ended
Hyperbole was used, just as it was in Old Testament prophecies
Jesus quoted Old Testament prophets because they were familiar to those present
31:10 Coasting
People are worried
They’re waiting for the end of the world
The end of all that is bad
33:42 John 14
Jesus said:
I go to prepare a place for you, and I will come back to bring you there (vs 3)
The Father is in me and I am in you (vs 20)
So we are already where He is; He is already here
He cannot return when He is here
“If heaven is where Christ is and where God is, then Heaven is… in your body, in your heart, in your spirit, because that's where Christ and the Father dwell right now.” - Keith
Christ has prepared a place, and that place is in us
34:37 New Covenant
The Spirit of God was poured out on every type of person
Paul describes us as the incarnation of Christ
Controversial statement: “There is more of Christ in the world right now than there was 2000 years ago.” - Keith
Christ died; all died
Christ was raised to the Father’s right hand; that is where we dwell
Every time someone chooses Christ, a bit more of Him comes into the world
Whenever “the coming of Christ” is in the New Testament, it is the Greek word, ‘Perusia’ which means ‘presence’
Christ in you, the hope of glory
“What all creation is groaning for is for Christians to wake up and realize that Christ is already in them.” - Keith
“Christ in us is going, ‘When are you going to wake up and realize who you are?’” -Keith
38:06 Movie metaphor
Waiting for His return is like buying a ticket to a major blockbuster
It’s got dragons, hailstones, Jesus coming out of the sky with a sword tongue…
Bought tickets, sat in the theater, watched the trailer… repeatedly
Rapture puts butts in church seats like a movie trailer puts people in the theater
Reality is more like Jesus waking you up and handing you a lightsaber
We get to participate, not just watch a movie
Way more exciting
We can look for where He is showing up in our everyday lives
“[The Kingdom] is already here, and we can see it.” - Abby
43:07 Jesus Unarmed
We are to be non-violent because that’s what God is like
He wants us to bring the Kingdom by doing things in a way that doesn’t make sense to the world
We’re not doing it just to be doormats or get our butts kicked
We’re showing the world who God is
God tells the Pharisees if Abraham was their father, they’d act like him
God lets it rain on the just and the unjust
Total contradiction to what Moses said
Moses: if you love God, you will have abundance, but if you curse Him, you will have drought
Correcting misunderstandings about who God is
John says Jesus came to make the Father known to us
Why would He need to be made known unless people didn’t know Him?
Jesus didn’t affirm everything Moses said
People know Jesus wasn’t what the Pharisees expected, but they don’t grasp how radical and different He was
50:17 Flat Bible Theory
Christians give every verse equal weight
Jesus really did change things
We must reinterpret Old Testament through Him
Verses, where God commands war and those where Jesus, speaks peace cannot have the same weight because they are in direct conflict
Otherwise, people come out saying, “Sometimes, violence is good; sometimes, it’s not,” when it never is
Transfiguration (Matthew 17)
Disciples wanted to build equal shelters for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah
God took back the Old Testament guys
“This is my Son. Listen to Him.”
Every knee bows
Including Moses and the prophets
Most of us already give some verses more weight than others
Ones we don’t understand or seem irrelevant
Why not do it purposefully and strategically?
The Bible was written by men, not God
Humans make mistakes
There’s a lot of historical and cultural context that we ignore
55:27 Our foundation
Is not the Bible
The Bible says it is Jesus
He is Truth
We are not to elevate the Book above Him
Christ will change the world, not the Bible itself
57:31 Civil resistance
Nonviolent campaigns have been almost twice as successful as violent insurrections
The options are not only to do nothing or blow someone’s brains out
There is also active peacemaking
“God isn't giving us a mission that's going to fail, that just results in all Christians being wiped out.” - Abby
The definition of insanity is doing what’s always been done and expecting new results
Jesus is offering something else to do
Try loving your enemies for a change
Moms in Liberia peacefully overthrew the dictator and ended the war their children were fighting in
Fighting over blueberries
We gotta stop conflict or we’ll destroy things without remembering why we started fighting
We don’t want to hurt each other just because one of us stole his brother’s blueberry
Nonviolence stops fights instantly
It disarms the attacker as soon as they hit you
So it doesn’t escalate out of proportion
“I could use violence to physically stop someone from hurting me, but it doesn't change their heart so they no longer want to hurt. Which is what meeting them with love actually does.” -Abby
So many people on death row are forgiven by the victim’s family
Amish school shooting
The shooter’s mom now cares for a child he shot
There are many happy, lovey stories
But let’s be honest
You could wind up dead
Exhibit A: Jesus Christ
That’s why Jesus said, “Take up your cross and follow me” (Mark 8:34)
Here’s the thing
You’re going to die at some point
Do you want to die living like Jesus?
What better way to go than loving your enemy?
“I'm going to respond in love to everybody and hey, if it works great, I get to do it again tomorrow.” - Keith
1:08:56 Introducing people to Jesus
People focusing on the wrath of God do not draw near to Him
Evangelicals are statistically the most in favor of war, torture, and the death penalty
There seems to be something destructive making those who claim to follow Jesus more vicious than those who don’t
It’s hard to teach someone something they think they already know
Other things get elevated above Jesus and block people from Him
The Bible, the government…
People use the word “Christian” improperly
They should try saying “Christ-like” and see if they still think it makes sense
When someone is feeling righteous, ask: where is Jesus in that?
America is a Christian nation
Oh, really? Let’s write down all the Christian things we’ve done, starting from the beginning
“We talk about what we believe, but no one has done the work to really dig down and see: Is what I believe based on Jesus?” - Keith
People have beliefs about immigration, and the Middle East… but where did they come from? What do they have to do with Jesus?
Usually, nothing
Before Constantine
You knew your neighbor was Christian by their love
Constantine said you can do horrible things as a Christian as long as you believe certain doctrines
Put a Bible verse on your weapons; that makes it okay
Soldier prayer circles before a battle
Asking Jesus to help them kill people
Deconstruction
“The deconstruction movement is the revival that evangelicals are looking for, but they're not recognizing.” - Abby (from a meme she saw)
It’s really people saying, “If we follow Christ, it shouldn’t be about hatred, tribalism, and fear; we should be Christ-like.”
We just want to get back to early Christianity
Before it was all about who you hate
Christian musician declaring war on deconstruction
Because people are afraid it’s leading Christians away from Christ
It’s actually people looking for Christ
They won’t take the time to understand what it means
It’s just not upholding their beliefs, so they panic
1:18:15 Don’t send hate mail
WE LOVE THE BIBLE!!
We just love Jesus more
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