107. Psychedelic Christianity: Mystic Medicine & Jesus

About this Episode

Craig is joined by Ivan Soto, as we venture into the compelling and controversial territory where Christianity, anarchy, and psychedelics intersect. Listen in as Ivan recounts his personal experiences with these powerful substances, discussing their sacred nature and how they've impacted his spiritual journey. We tackle the tough questions about the role of psychedelics in cognitive enhancement and spiritual awakening, all while examining the risks and misconceptions that come with their use.

Venture with us through the spiritual and emotional landscapes that psychedelics can unlock. We ponder the government's role in regulating these substances and the societal stigmas attached to them. From the debated connection to witchcraft to their legal status, we don't shy away from the tough discussions. Discover why an open dialogue about these substances is crucial within the Christian community and what it means to engage with psychedelics responsibly.

Finally, we explore the transformative potential of psychedelics for personal growth and healing. Reflect with us on how these experiences can offer profound insights into our own psyches, sometimes through challenging "bad trips" that ultimately lead to personal development. Ivan and I consider the potential for psychedelics to be a tool in coping with life's hardships and the intriguing idea of achieving enlightened Christianity. Tune in as we also examine the broader spectrum of spiritual knowledge, questioning whether the Bible is the sole source of divine inspiration or if other experiences, like those with psychedelics, can provide a path to understanding.

Connect with Ivan Soto:

• Facebook

• Instagram

Episode Timestamps:

Timestamps:

01:02 Introduction: Exploring Psychedelics and Christianity

• Ivan Soto opens the discussion with his personal journey with psychedelics.

• The sacred nature of psychedelics is recognized.

02:00 The Double-Edged Sword of Psychedelics

• Ivan underlines the fact that psychedelics aren't suitable for everyone.

• Importance of understanding individual mental health when considering psychedelic use.

06:00 Stigmas Surrounding Psychedelics

• Discusses the societal stigmas and misconceptions about substances like marijuana.

• The damaging effects of misinformation on the perception of these substances.

09:16 Exploring Psychedelics and Spirituality

• Discussion on the potential of psychedelics for inducing humbling experiences.

• A reminder that not everyone is suited for these experiences.

11:00 Government Regulations and Psychedelics

• A critique the government's role in regulating these substances.

• Historical association of psychedelics with witchcraft.

12:00 The Christian Perspective on Psychedelics

• Ivan calls for open Christian dialogue on the topic of psychedelics.

13:01 Debunking Misconceptions About Witchcraft

• Discusses misconceptions about witchcraft and its overlap with prayer and reality manipulation.

17:00 Psychedelics as Tools for Spiritual Insight

• The use of psychedelics for gaining spiritual insights.

• Drawing parallels between religious figures and psychedelic users.

20:00 The Cultural Significance of Psychedelics

• Exploring the cultural significance of substances like the Amanita muscaria mushroom.

22:54 The Therapeutic Potential of Psychedelics

• The healing potential of psychedelics for emotional and cognitive issues.

27:45 Importance of Set and Setting in Psychedelic Use

• The significance of environment and mindset when using psychedelics.

• Personal insights on the experiences with MDMA and LSD.

30:00 Using Psychedelics for Personal Growth

• The role of intention in using psychedelics for personal growth.

32:26 The Dark Side of Psychedelics: Bad Trips

• Discusses "bad trips" as opportunities for personal insight and psychological understanding.

34:00 Recreational vs Therapeutic Use of Psychedelics

• Highlights the differences between recreational and therapeutic use of psychedelics.

35:00 Psychedelics for Depression and Grief

• Psychedelics as potential aids for coping with depression and grief.

35:09 Spiritual Enlightenment: Scripture vs Psychedelics

• The debate on attaining spiritual enlightenment through scripture vs. psychedelic experiences.

40:00 The Role of the Holy Spirit in Guiding Truth

• The Spirit's role as a guide to truth.

• Early church writings enhancing understanding of the Bible.

43:00 Beyond the Bible: Other Sources of Divine Inspiration

• Questioning the Bible as the sole source of divine inspiration.

• Introduction to the concept of 'apocatastasis'.

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82. What do jiu-jitsu and anarchism have in common? with Tyler Rose

About this Episode

What happens when the Bad Roman meets a Christian Anarchist while training for jiu-jitsu? He invites him on the show, of course. Tyler Rose and Craig discuss Christianity, anarchy philosophy, self-reliance, and their experiences in the jiu-jitsu gym. They discuss why the term “good cop” is an oxymoron and contrast the need for a sovereign state with enforcers with self-reliance and the benefits of learning jiu-jitsu.

There seem to be a lot of libertarian or anarchism-inclined people amongst those who are regularly at the gym training in jiu-jitsu; many hold to ideas of decentralization, individualism, and self-reliance. Tyler suggests that jiu-jitsu has everything for the intellectual and anyone who is athletically built. Craig and Tyler talk about the various types of people they’ve met and their experiences grappling in the gym. As a Christian and a pacifist, one of the neat things about jiu-jitsu is its ability to teach anyone how to control any violent situation while deciding exactly how much damage their opponent will sustain as they take control of any violent incident to protect themselves or their family. If you practice a martial-art or have ever thought about taking up jiu-jitsu, this episode is a must-listen!

Tyler Rose:

Fountain Memphis – Pentecostal church in Bartlett

Brotherhood jiu-jitsu in Mountainview Arkansas

Memphis Judo and Jiu-jitsu

Episode Timestamps:

1:48 – Who is Tyler Rose?

• Pentecostal 

• Got into politics at age 15 with an interest in American political history

• Saw the revolutionary war as ‘God inspired’

• Became libertarian, then anarchist

• Self-reliance is important

• Grew up in North Memphis

7:56 – We don’t need a sovereign government or their cops

• The church should help the vulnerable, widows, and orphans

• It was done with consensual aid in the early church

• All laws end in death

• If it’s not worth someone dying over, don’t call the cops

• Good cops cannot exist

• The job of governing others is inherently evil

• Law enforcement is nothing but a gang

• Cops can disrespect a man, and he can’t do anything back

• If any man without a badge and gun spoke like a cop, they would be punched

• Cops have lost respect for other men

• “Just following orders” is a terrible excuse

• Tyler’s “friend” who was a cop, was bragging about injuring a man on the street

21:40 – Don’t rely on the police; learn jiu-jitsu instead

• Men should be able to defend themselves and their families on their own

• That’s why jiu-jitsu was attractive to Craig

• The jiu-jitsu community is very encouraging

• The anarchist and jiu-jitsu communities seem to overlap quite a bit

• People who are athletic and smart tend to enjoy jiu-jitsu

• Jiu-jitsu is great for increasing physical strength

• But it's still better to use defense and control the fight than overpower anyone

• Jiu-jitsu is good for teaching children discipline and self-defense

• Jiu-jitsu is the most popular art that avoids punching people but will still give the sportsman the advantage in a fight

• There’s no need to harm your drunk uncle 

• You can put someone out calmly with jiu-jitsu

• The argument can be over without ever injuring a person

• At 56 years old, Henzo could defend himself against a random attack on the subway

• It gives confidence in one’s capabilities to be well-prepared in any situation

• Jiu-jitsu can aid women in self-defense as well

• When Tyler began, he got his but kicked by a teenage girl who weighed much less than him

52:40 – Anarchy philosophy

• No King But Christ means, “I already have a king. I don’t need a politician.”

• There are two responses to the term anarchy

• People would just run the streets shooting people because there are no laws

• No, people don’t shoot other people because they are good people

• It’s still wrong to violate life, liberty, and property

• Anarchists aren’t out there throwing Molotov cocktails

• It’s in our best interest to get along

• Craig thinks jiu-jitsu and anarchy are similar in that everyone encourages and helps their fellow man to do better and succeed 

• Tyler agrees

• Tyler has noticed that most regular jiu-jitsu practitioners hold to ideas of decentralization and self-reliance

• They are intelligent enough to know they need to defend themselves

• They are mostly libertarian and close to anarchism

• Maybe even anarchists without realizing it or saying it

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81. Unmasking the Truth Behind COVID-19 with Jeffrey Hann

About this Episode

In this eye-opening episode of The Bad Roman, we dive deep into the complex world of the COVID-19 pandemic with our guest, Jeffrey Hann, author of the book titled Covid-19 – Short Path to you’ll Own Nothing and You’ll be Happy. Our conversation covers a wide range of subjects that challenge the mainstream narrative, offering valuable insights and thought-provoking discussion points.

We begin by exploring Jeffrey's background, which includes experiences in the military, political analysis, libertarianism, and the rave scene. He shares his unique method of critical thinking, which involves grammar, logic, and rhetoric, and how it has helped him to examine various topics, including climate change and anarchism.

As we discuss the absurd behaviors during the pandemic, such as mask exceptions and social pressure, we question the validity of mask usage and whether they may be doing more harm than good. We also delve into the role of police (aka policy enforcers) in enforcing bad policies and ponder whether we truly live in a free country.

The conversation turns to the controversial mRNA vaccines and the reasons to be suspicious of their rapid development and rollout. We discuss the potential link between vaccines and various health issues, as well as the lack of accountability by those in power.

In exploring the fine line between conspiracy and questioning, we discuss the digital dollar push, potential new viruses, and the possible use of the vaccine as a biological weapon. We then examine who has profited from the pandemic and question whether the government cares more about profits than the long-term health of its citizens.

As we cover the erosion of self-sufficiency and market unpredictability, we touch on the voluntary reporting system of adverse vaccine experiences (VAERS) and the concept of "safe and effective." Finally, Jeffrey shares his understanding of Christ as an anarchist who fought against tyranny and offers insight into his book "COVID-19 to You'll Own Nothing and You'll Be Happy."

Don't miss this fascinating and thought-provoking episode that challenges the status quo and encourages critical thinking on the COVID-19 pandemic and its aftermath.

Jeffrey Hann:

BOOK

WEBSITE: Journalistic Revolution

Episode Timestamps:

1:06 Why Jeffrey is on the show

• Paul Perol

2:00 Jeffrey’s Background

• PLUR (peace, love, unity) in the rave scene

• Military, political analyst, author

• Libertarianism, Ron Paul

5:02 Trivia Method of Critical Thinking

• Grammar, logic, rhetoric

• Climate Change and anarchism

7:24 Writing to Refine Rhetoric

• Jefferies articles

•  19,000-word report on covid in 2022

• Chapter layout and intention

11:36 Critical thinking

• Kerry Baldwin

• Absurd behaviors during covid

• Mask exceptions and social pressure

16:51 Is there a valid case for masks the way most people use them?

• Self-responsibility

• The challenge of using a mask properly

• Mask ratings, sealing, fit, and wear time, proper PPE use

• Could the mask be making you sicker?

• Keeping your hands clean

24:36 Is our food safe/helping keep us healthy?

• Public indoctrination

• Mcdonald’s was open and gyms were closed in Covid

• Defending the cops for enforcing bad policy

• Do we live in a free country?

• People forget very fast

• Gold Fish Mentality

30:18 The Thin Blue Line

• Modern-day redcoats

• Policy enforcers are the boots on the ground violating our rights

• 13th Amendment

• Free of slavery unless convicted of a crime

•  Supreme Court – no obligation to protect and serve

• Public Schools foster blind obedience to authority

35:17 Reasons to be suspicions of the mRNA Vaccine Push

• Gene Therapy

• Hard to find information

37:07 Policy Enforcers, Guns, and State Power

• Do you want the government to have guns?

• 2and Amendment is intended to be a check on the government not citizens

• Government is not static

• Global Tyranny is what we are headed toward

• Was covid a test to see how the global population would react?

• If anyone should not trust the government it’s Christians

• Jesus was killed by the state

44:24 The Vaccine Chaos and Future Health Cautions

• Religious exemptions

• Spike proteins and mRNA vaccine

• Buffalo Bills NFL player Hamlin collapse

• Could it be vaccine related?

• Australia Database

• RSV

53:59 Lack of accountability by those in power

• Arresting Trump for money vs mass murder

• Trump brought us the vaccines

• Liability free with the FDA and government funds

• Ohio Derailment

59:52 The fine line between conspiracy and questioning

• “Man in the middle attacks”

• Information scrubbing

• Is the vaccine a biological weapon

• The digital dollar push

• Has the next virus already been developed?

• Vitamin deficiencies 

• D & C & Zinc

1:11:08 Who profited from the pandemic?

• Pfizer and Moderna stock

• Its connection to members of Congress (most owned stock)

• Fauci patented HIV sequence

• Making money off taxpayer money

1:16:10 Does the government care about your long-term health or profits?

• Vaccine Commercial Marketing

• Vanguard and Black Rock own most of everything we buy

• Seed Oils

• Our food system has been poisoned

• Fresh eggs & meat vs. store-bought

• Increase in the price of eggs

1:23:33 Erosion of self-sufficiency and market unpredictability

• Lack of a unified American Culture

• Are we being infiltrated from within or destroying ourselves?

1:29:11 VAERS

• Voluntary reporting system of adverse vaccine experiences

• What is “safe and effective” — how much time is needed to know

1:35:03 Jeffrey’s Understanding of Christ 

• Jesus was an anarchist

• Against tyranny

• Balenciaga Runway Show

• Stantanism

• Sam Smith's Unholy Performance

• God is a pure source of consciousness

1:43:40 How to find Jeffrey’s book and where to learn more about him

• Book: Covid-19 Short Path to you’ll Own Nothing and You’ll be Happy

• More writing and website: Journalistic Revolution

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65. Reclaiming Church with Dan Morrison

About this Episode

Craig is joined by the Rev. Dr. Dan Morrison, Assistant Rector of All Saint Anglican Church in Springfield, Missouri. Dan brings his plethora of experience and knowledge of scripture to the show for a conversation on the original role of the Church and how modern Christianity is living up to the model Jesus set forth over 2,000 years ago. 

Why do Christians seek solutions through political systems of power and fail to remember those are the very systems that murdered our savior? How did we get here, and how can we reclaim Churches for Jesus rather than sell out to the state and its illusions for physical and spiritual freedom? Too often we forget it is Jesus who makes us free, but that freedom is not freedom from suffering, but rather a call towards it. It should be difficult to be a citizen of heaven in a fallen world, but that is when we need to turn to God most.

In divinity school Dan became an expert on the book of Revelations, he shares his expertise and vision for the future of Churches with Craig, as well as some perspective on how we have gotten so off course as Christians. Listeners will leave this episode with a renewed desire to pursue Christ over politics, to not fall trap to the illusions of earthly power, but to instead do what Jesus would do, turn from the earthly kingdoms, and show the world what it means to know the love of God.

Episode Timestamps:

00:35 Shoutout to Amber

01:06 Dan’s Background

• Assistant Rector All Saint Anglican Church in Springfield, MI

• Undergrad in classical applied math

• Ph.D. in Divinity studies

• Roll-tide or Razorbacks?

03:30 Dan’s Sermon 

05:36 Why are Christians seeking solutions through political systems?

• Do christians truly trust God as the ruler of all things?

• Christians are called to suffer in following Jesus

  • We live in a fallen world, the systems of the world ar destined to fall…yet we latch onto them instead of God 

• Fear vs. Jesus

  • the two-party system – voting against vs. for something

• Illusions of changing the system from within

• Joining the military

  • Asses what you are doing and why

    • Don’t lose sight of Christ’s way

• World systems have been allowed to infiltrate the churches

  • Result: churches look more like the world than Christ

11:20 Two Responses to September 11, 2001

• Preach the gospel or kill people out of anger

• Profiling others (only God can judge anyone)

• Christians on the right and left

  • Being a “Christian nation” (are we the good guys?)

    • The deadliness of the United States Empire

  • “Hold my beer”

14:06 Who do we worship at Church? 

• Jesus, Troops, Flags, and Afghanistan

• Romans 13

  • But first: Romans 12

• Killing other Christians (or anyone) for the sake of a geopolitical nation

  • Partisan agendas and scripture

    • Conquest in the old testament – Joshua

    • Can’t pick and choose, must then look at the old testament text about care for the foreigner, ect.

    • It’s all or nothing or in consistency

17:50 The Consistency of Jesus – who will you follow?

• We don’t follow Paul or Joshua, we follow Jesus and his teachings

  • “When you’ve seen me you’ve seen the father”

  • Jesus is who set us free – take that seriously, opt. Out

    • Galatians 5:1 – USA is not who set us free

19:07 The World is Watching – What are you going to do as a Christian?

• The state is going to do what the state is going to do

• We forget who we belong to as Christians

  • Or we just ignore it

• “America” is not even the United States of America (i.e. remember Canada, South America, Central America, and Mexico?)

  • Jerusalem and USA 

    • False belief: God created the USA on purpose to protect Israel

• Paul’s statement of the Israel of God reconciled with Romans 13

  • Romans 13 in light of Romans 12

• Jesus never gives us the power to call done fire from heaven upon anyone

  • If you think that’s what being Christian is about then you don’t get Jesus

• Loving your neighbor and enemy leaves you with no one left to hate

22:33 Romans 13 out of context — the Jump to the White Horse of Revelations 

• Revelation 1

  • God as Jesus Christ ruler of Kings on Earth

• Revelation 4

• Revelation 17

  • Will God rain fire?

  • “John’s 3rd Vision”

    • People with Jesus do nothing but ride in behind him, no one is slayed

  • Destruction of Babylon – Romans 17 Verse 16

    • World Sytems implode on themselves, their failure is baked into their creation before Jesus ever shows up

• We are going to kill people in the name of Jesus does not add up

  • God never tells us to do that

• Nations get stricken down because they have waged war against Christ himself

• Churches – fix yourselves!

• The systems are powered by satan

  • Will we appeal to the empire to feel safe or dare to follow Jesus

• Jezebel – welcome in the imperialism in the church

  • The false hope of political power

• Churches are in bed with the empire

31:38 Difficulty of Finding a Church that has Jesus as the Focus

• Home church?

• Pushback from Dan’s sermon on revelation

35:47 January 6, 2021

• Christians trying to save their earthly king

• Civil Religion

  • People have become enchanted as if by a spell

• Did God stop being ruler? 

• Ruling by proxy, shifting blame to please God

  • Outsourcing sin

• Paul could not have voted Cesar into power

  • Pray for those in authority over us

 43:09 Romans 13 – Paul uses Submit vs. Obey

• David Bentley Hart New Testament Tranaslation original greek

  • Peter: “It is necessary we obey God rather than man”

• Rosa Parks

• Abortion debate and submit or obey

  • Following the constitution

  • Live in a world where abortion is not seen as a choice, not one the government has a say so in

  • Don’t celebrate anything the government does

• With the reversal of Roe v. Wade — what is there left to run on?

• Should Christians be voting?

  • Why are you going to the world systems that caused the death of your savior?

  • Being in bed with the beast vs. suffering under the foot of the beast

51:26 Choose this day (and every day) who you will serve

• Frustration with Christians and a relentless need to follow Jesus 

• The term we translate as Church is also a political term

  • Eclessica – a local gathering of the citizens of God that have come together for a purpose

54:29 Daniel I. Morrison’s Plugs

• Facebook 

• Twitter & Instagram

• Allsaintsspringfeild.org

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64. Is Jesus King? with Ian Minielley

About this Episode

Ian Minielly has written several articles for the Bad Roman and most recently is the author of the book The Genetic God. He is passionate about the church worshiping Jesus without the state and encouraging people to seek first His Kingdom. 

Who is our king? Many people would respond that we don’t have one in America. But Christians do. We have a global King. Our president is the furthest person on Earth from meeting God’s standards for a ruler. We do not meet those standards. No one does but Jesus. He is our King.

Episode Timestamps:

00:20 

• Are you fit to rule over your neighbor or are they fit to rule over you?

• “People wanting to clamor for a new king because they want their team to win, but who exactly is fit to be king?” - Craig

1:52 Inspiration for the article

• Watching football

  • Political ads

• Read Deuteronomy 17

  • Guidelines for a king

  • God’s warns them

    • “Kings are bad, but I know you’ll want one, so here’s how to best do that”

  • When they did get a king, they went against most of the guidelines

    • All presidents swear an oath to the Constitution

      • All presidents break that oath

        • Why are they making new laws if they can’t even keep the ones

          • Legislators should be hired to abolish laws, not add more

• Figured out politicians never do what they promise

  • At age 31

  • Could not continue to be made the fool who believed it would fix things if a certain person was in office

    • When the house, senate, and presidency have all been 1 side, things have still not improved

      • In fact, they’ve had power to do worse things

    • People think they gotta get the right justice into the supreme court

  • People vote out of fear

  • Craig was 43 when he realized politicians don’t help anything

• Double-minded thinking

  • 1 John 2

    • “Do not love anything of the world.”

    • Pastor said that,

      • Ian looked at his wife, 

        • Who tried to avoid eye contact

        • He was obviously about to point out the contradiction

          • In 2 weeks, they were going to have a big 4th of July USA celebration

          • Which is something of the world

13:50 

• II Timothy 3:16

  • All Scripture is useful

    • Random passage in Deuteronomy completely changed Ian’s view on politics

    • Only read it as part of a yearly reading plan

      • But it made him realize that our politicians are not legitimate kings

        • Only Jesus is

14:44 Why do Christians vote?

• They’re indoctrinated to believe that’s their responsibility

• Of course, they’re choosing between the most depraved people in the country

  • Twist Romans 13

• The pulpit has failed

  • Those in pews think they’re supposed to focus on Earthly matters

• The empire is falling

• “Everything the state touches, they screw up. Why in the hell are you going out there and putting more people in power? Why don't you just walk away?” - Craig

  • Right before COVID, many people were starting to realize this

    • So why are people still trusting the state at this point??

  • It’s like we’re in Babylonian captivity

    • Daniel and his friends refused to eat the king’s food

      • Everyone else ate it and fell ill

      • Those 4 men were healthy and strong

    • Most people are choosing to live like Babylonians

      • Doing what’s expected to survive

    • Daniel chose to worship God even when the law said only the king

      • Thrown in the lions’ den, but not consumed

    • Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to bow to the idol

      • Thrown in the furnace, but did not burn

    • We refuse to eat the king’s food

      • We’re spread throughout the country as tiny beacons of light

  • When in Rome…

    • When in the United States, 

      • Act like an American

    • No. We are citizens of the Kingdom

    • “We have subjugated our real identity in Jesus, underneath the identity of a flag in whatever the national government over us is. And so we are a fractured people.” - Ian

  • “Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    • We’re not seen as beacons of light

    • People think we’re nuts

    • We’re going against the grain

    • “I got told the other day that at work. ‘You don't have a reason to complain cuz you don't even vote.’ That's the dumbest thing ever. I said, ‘You don't have a reason to complain. You asked for all of this, you asked for every bit of tyranny that you're getting.’” - Craig

21:55 Ways Christians have been manipulated to vote

• Against godless communism

• Against abortion

• 9/11

  • Craig even tried to join the National Guard

    • But was 4 whole pounds overweight

      • His momma is grateful for those 4 pounds

  • His friend got in

    • As soon as he arrived, they were in a fire fight

  • They wanted to go preach the Gospel

24:32 National (religious?) holidays

• Church service on American holidays

  • Service members stand and applauded for

  • Pledge to the flag

• The state has 100% infiltrated the church

  • Jesus Untangled by Keith Giles

• Ian got saved while in the army

  • The church on base was all about military

  • It’s a miracle he got saved there

    • The mindset was all about going overseas and killing humans

  • He just started reading the Bible

    • Realized everything he believed was wrong

    • He still has worldly thought patterns to break

• Christians vote because

  • They were raised on state worship

  • They’re taught to salute flags and stop when they hear the national anthem

  • That’s what good conservatives/Christians do 

    • If you don’t, you cannot be a good Christian

  • “They don't see how it's counter to our faith to worship the state and ask the state to do all these things.” - Ian

    • Gotta have a big, powerful state

    • Sell weapons to Ukrainians and Saudis so they can kill

      • Because it keeps Americans employed

      • “They got money to go to war, but they can’t feed the poor.” - Tupac

      • Why do people support that??

        • The Russians are image-bearers of God!

      • “The only good those planes might be able to do is if you took all those gun racks and bomb racks off and you put little parachute racks on there and they just dropped Bibles all over the world.” - Ian

      • “The next eight countries in the world don't spend as much on the military as the United States does, yet I'm supposed to think that China's a threat to me.” - Ian 

        • The US government is my enemy

          • China doesn’t steal my money

          • They’re not here right now

          • Muhammad Ali refused the draft, saying “I ain’t got no quarrel with those Vietcong.”

    • In Deut 7, God says you don’t want a king who’s after chariots and war

      • Yet that seems to be what everyone chases after

        • Ron Paul said he would cut the military and got cut from the race

    • He also warned that a king would take 10% of the people’s earnings

      • We sure give our “king” a lot more than that

      • Maybe we were better off under the monarchy

        • The Tea Party was about taxes less than 3%

    • People standing up to the war machine

      • Muhammad Ali

        • Refused the Vietnam draft

      • Laurence M. Vance

        • Written books on the topic

      • Kaepernick

        • Football player took a knee to protest police brutality

  • Now, players who don’t want to salute just stay in the locker room

    • They all used to do that

    • Until the government started buying ads to support the NFL

    • Now, players are expected to display patriotism on the field

    • If you have any influence and you stand against the machine, the government will work to destroy you

    • Some people stopped watching football because of players kneeling during the anthem

    • Just watch the game for the game and ignore the circus around it

      • They want you to focus on that

        • So you shouldn’t

    • There’s tons of army recruitment commercials

38:31 Is there anyone who is fit to be king?

• Israel wanted a king because everyone else had one

  • Made them feel like they had earthly power

• “I think I'm a pretty morally upstanding guy, but make me president, and I'm gonna make people do things they don't want to do.” - Ian

  • “I want to use the power of the state to force them to act how I think a morally upright person should, which is completely not morally upright.” - Ian

• If you want a president who makes war, raises taxes, spends lots of money, purposely keeps the population enslaved in poverty, 

  • That person exists

  • If you don’t want that,

    • Don’t vote

    • Because that’s what you’re going to get no matter what

• Libertarians believe if they had the power, these problems would go away

  • “If you wanted to spread a message of Liberty, then you'd be talking about Jesus.” - Craig

    • Not about getting some guy elected

  • People try to get Craig to run for office

    • Can’t change the mafia from the inside

      • Can only change their hearts with Jesus

40:56 Tell people about Jesus

• They might say He wasn’t real

  • What if He wasn’t?

    • What do we lose by following His teachings?

    • How would the world be different

      • If “Christians” followed Jesus?

    • Christians can’t even envision it

      • Because they’ve been too ingrained with the state

41:40 Seek ye first the Kingdom

• Luke 12

• Jesus is dropping truth bombs

  • A dude interrupts to ask Jesus to tell his brother to share the inheritance

  • Jesus tells the story of the rich fool

    • He had plenty

    • His harvest was huge

    • Rather than share or even sell it, he built bigger barns

      • Needed it all for himself

    • He wanted to eat, drink, and be merry

    • He died. God took his breath

  • Don’t worry about Earthly possessions

    • Seek His Kingdom, and all you need will be provided

    • God knows you need food, clothing, shelter, and security

      • Stop chasing after those 4 things

      • Chase after Him!

      • Everyone’s doing it backwards

      • They live their life and maybe volunteer for VBS once a year

      • “From morning till sunrise or sunset all day long, you pursue the Kingdom.” - Ian

        • Are you talking to people about Jesus?

      • “That stuff is so interesting because He's already said it's gonna be provided and yet, people still worry about it.” - Craig

      • Only Satan could convince us to chase those 4 things

      • Our society’s structure

        • No one likes work

          • They’re upset they’re not at home with their family

        • Husband and wife are both working

          • Send kids off to the free indoctrination camp

          • To learn to become plantation workers

        • Develop heart problems at 60

          • Don’t get retirement benefits

          • Whole life wasted

      • If people would pursue God instead

        • Probably would have smaller house and truck

        • But not regretting living to stuff the pockets of the government

      • It’s hard though, because new trucks are so shiny and cool

47:27 Did God put the president in power?

• If you believe determinism

• But those rulers are handpicked by evil people because they are the most corrupt

  • God wouldn’t pick the most corrupt

  • He can use the most corrupt

    • But He wouldn’t select such bloodthirsty individuals

• Biden was handpicked well in advance and put on the US throne

• God didn’t pick Trump either!!

• God picked Jesus

  • “God has Him ready to be the leader of every single person's life in the entire world.” -Ian

51:32 Isolation

• The Bad Roman lets people know that they're not the only one sitting in church gritting their teeth on national holidays

• Elijah felt isolated

  • Until God let him know about a remnant he had kept 

• People who've given up and left church can know that not all Christians worship the state 

• “Jesus freed us from thinking the way that we think today. He freed us from that; He broke those shackles. But the government is extremely good at getting people to put those shackles back on.” - Ian

  • All they gotta do is make you scared

    • And then offer security

---

Related Episodes

Related Blog Post

63. Universal Salvation with Abby Cleckner, Aree Spivey & Scott Goldman

About this Episode

Three brilliant minds join us on this episode to talk about what made them decide Christian universalism makes the most sense compared to other theologies. They share their personal stories as well as Scriptures to explain why Hell cannot exist, everyone will be together with Jesus in the end, and what that means for our current life here on Earth. These three are Abby Cleckner, Scott Goldman, and Aree Spivey from Failed Kingdoms – the artist of our intro song. Find him on YouTube and Kindle Vella, among other platforms.

God is love. God is just. God is infinitely merciful. God is not willing that any should perish. So, why do most Christians balk at the idea that God doesn’t send people to eternal punishment or obliterate them after death? We’ve been trained in what the correct answers are and never to question what the pastor says. But have you ever even truly thought it through for yourself?

Episode Timestamps:

00:37 Is Universalism Biblical or heretical?

• The main reason for the question

  • Many good Early Church quotes come from universalists

    • Commonly accepted in the church today as a pejorative

      • Even though universalism is rejected

2:50 Abby’s Religious Background

• Grew up typical protestant

  • Went to church on Sundays

    • But it never really meant anything

• Switched to Lutheran and Methodist

  • Moved a lot, so lots of different churches

• Church was a ritual she hated

  • Swore she’d never go as an adult

  • And never make her kids go

• Invited to Evangelical church in high school

  • No one dressed up

  • There were no hymnals

  • They played guitars

  • And it was more about relationship with God than ritual

  • About learning, studying, growing

    • But then in studying, came to stories like God commanding [Saul] to kill every man, woman, and child

      • Shocked that God would command him to kill babies

      • More and more stories like that that didn’t sit right built up

      • Didn’t align with who she knew God to be

      • “Study and ask questions, but not those kinds of questions.” - leaders Abby talked to at church

        • You’re just supposed to accept it and move on

• Listened to podcasts

  • Learned about church history

  • The rich diversity of beliefs

  • Christian universalism

    • What majority of early Christians believed

• Hell

  • “If you take the idea of Hell really seriously, you can never have peace.” - Abby

    • In relationships

      • Felt so guilty

      • Felt a responsibility to save all their souls

        • Hurry, in case they die today

  • “Jesus left paradise to come down and serve the suffering. And so how could He just let people suffer in Hell?” - Abby

  • “...people, I love, if they were in Hell, what would I do to get them out? How much more would God do that for them?” - Abby

7:23 Scott’s Religious Background

• Raised Pentecostcal

• Then Foursquare

• Hell was a big thing 

  • His churches were big on fire and brimstone

  • Got married

    • Then really came to God

    • Had to accept that his wife was headed to Hell

      • When she got saved, it was such a relief

  • Driving around with friends, sharing the love of Jesus

    • One said he wasn’t interested and asked what would happen

      • Well… you could kind of go to Hell

        • “That sounds like a threat”

      • Something in the air wasn’t right

  • Scared for his children’s souls

    • Especially when his oldest became a rebellious teen

    • You hope they get into the Word

      • Become that little worship leader you want them to be

  • Learned about annhilationism

    • Seemed more Scriptural

  • 1 Timothy 4:10

    • “...our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.”

      • This changed everything

  • Started reading Keith Giles 

    • Amazon

    • Latest Bad Roman podcast episode

  • Currently listening to Graces Saves All by David Artman

    • Outlines why everything in the Bible points to universal salvation

  • Would sit in church and worry that those who didn’t go to the altar and repent would die, unsaved, in a car crash on the way home

  • Fear is not a great motivator for Scott;

    • Grace always is

  • And Jesus didn’t go around threatening people

    • He gave them grace

  • Grace doesn’t mean we do what we want

    • It motivates us to do better

  • Fear might motivate some people

    • But it’s not something Jesus ever used

• Inerrancy 

  • Puts more stock in Gospels than Epistles

    • Many believe the entire Bible is God’s Word

    • Jesus is the Word

    • The Gospels are about Jesus

      • Some were written by people who were with him every day

12:42 Ari’s Religious Background

• Grew up in black charismatic churches

  • Preached lots of hellfire

• N-64 trauma

  • He was in middle school

  • His Nintendo 64 his most important possession

  • His game stopped, so he tried blowing on the cartridge

    • Like 40 times

    • Didn’t work

  • Got so desperate he begged God to make it work

    • It still didn’t

  • So he told God, “I hate you”

  • A bit later, pastor preached on blaspheming the Holy Spirit

    • Said saying you hate God is a way to do that

    • So Ari’s sittin there thinking he can never be forgiven

      • Doesn’t matter what he’ll say or do now; his little mistake cost him everything

      • Cried every night begging God to forgive him

• His aunt died young

  • When he was about 6

  • He always wondered if she was in Heaven or Hell

  • She was in her wild 20’s phase

    • Pushed away from church

• In his 20’s, he became agnostic

• Slowly rebuilt his faith from the foundation up

  • Started studying Hell

    • The Fire That Consumes

      • Annhilist

    • Read 1 Cor 15:22

      • Started to wonder and research if everyone will be saved

        • Led to reading about the early church

  • Decided universalism is

    • Most moral

    • Logically consistent

18:38 Craig

• People should read what those from Jesus time - 500 years after understood

  • Polycarp was taught by John, who was taught by Jesus

• Questioned everything since birth

• Started understanding liberty, which led to anarchy

  • What if he was wrong about other things?

    • Even Biblical ideas?

• “If it’s not consistent, I’m done with it.” - Craig

  • How can there be 40,000 denominations?

    • Man did this

      • Maybe they should study the early church to see if they’re really right

        • Or maybe we just need to hold on to our current understandings more loosely

        • Be open to learning and changing

        • If God is infinite, maybe it does take that many denominations to show different parts of Him

        • “We're all on a journey trying to understand this the best that we can. And I'm never gonna be a hundred percent right.” - Abby

        • We’re gonna keep learning for all eternity

• Jesus was a questioner

  • People would get stumped because they came in to fight, not to understand

22:48ish The Western church is a lot like an empire

• Don’t question 

  • If you do, you’re out

• “Jesus was not killed by atheism and anarchy. He was brought down by law and order allied with religion – which is always a deadly mix. Beware those who claim to know the mind of God and are prepared to use force, if necessary, to make others conform. Beware those who cannot tell God’s will – from their own.” ~ Barbara Brown Taylor

• When the church came to power under Constantine

  • We served Caesar

  • Dictatorship

• The Western church is more like imperialism than Jesus

  • We’ve settled for Caesar too

  • Psychological similarities

    • With those who buck this idea of universalism

    • Addiction to power

    • COVID vaccine

      • “Do this, or else”

        • You can’t go shopping

        • You can’t go to Heaven

      • Question, and you’re just a conspiracy theorist

      • You’re not smart enough

        • Trust the experts

        • Belittling

    • Augustine

      • Someone asked him what God was doing before creation

        • “Creating Hell for people like you who ask stupid questions”

        • Smart question; had to be belittled to coerce everyone to stick with Augustine as the authority

    • Pastors Say 

      • “That’s just how it is”

      • “That’s what the Bible says, so it’s ok”

26:28 If Jesus said He’s going to save all people, why question whether He means everyone?

• Everyone asks, “What about Hitler?”

  • Just reaffirms idea that some people are more deserving of Heaven than others

    • But their theology says everyone is equally deserving of Hell

    • Everyone is also equally saveable

• If God intends to save everyone, He will

  • He has the power

  • He has the intention

• Romans 3:23

  • People use this verse passionately and frequently

    • But ignore “because of Adam, all die; but all are made alive in Christ.”

  • Proves where your focus is

    • The power of sin

    • Everyone is in sin vs all are alive

    • Lack of faith that God can deliver us all from it

• “People believe all sins can be forgiven except a misunderstanding.” - Abby

  • You can rape and murder

    • As long as you say sorry to Jesus

  • But you can’t be born Muslim or Hindu

    • And follow your religion for your whole life

• God is going to restore creation to its original intent

  • Except this little pocket called Hell

  • It doesn’t make sense for sin to be eternal

  • It doesn’t make sense to restore creation to perfection

    • But have most people – His children – be out of reach

    • “Why would he restore the entire universe except not allow people who didn't have the correct understanding while they were on earth to come into a right relationship with him?” - Abby

  • If God is infinitely merciful, why would He not save everyone?

  • We each have infinite chances

    • With sufficient knowledge of God, of course everyone will turn

33:53 Death is not finite

“Who says God can't still work on your heart after you've left this earth?” - Abby

• Jesus conquered death

  • Yet most people still believe death is final

    • That there’s no coming back from there; it’s your last chance

    • And once you cross that threshold, you’re out of God’s reach

34:41 Free will

• People hold to 

  • Love doesn’t force you to do anything

    • That’s why there has to be a Hell

      • Because we need freedom to choose one or the other

• But God isn’t forcing people to accept Him after death

  • He is simply providing more information

  • Removing the bondage of sin

  • And taking off layers of blinders

  • If it takes someone 3,000 years to choose Him, that’s their choice

    • Though, we’ll be living outside time

  • But everyone will accept Him in the end

36:18 More on death

• Death is a part of life

• It doesn’t last forever

• People attempting suicide (successful and not)

  • Seen Christ in each of them

  • Lost for a time, but not forever

• Death, where is your victory?

• “I'm not gonna feel the pain of this forever. I'm gonna be reunited with the people that I love, regardless of if they had it all figured out here or not.” - Scott ?

37:31 Scriptures for the skeptics

• Eternal damnation doesn’t make any sense, when you read Jesus’ words

• Burning Up song

  • Everyone will be salted with fire

  • Mark 9:49

  • Salt/Gehenna context

• If non-believers get time to come to Jesus after they die, do Christians get time to learn more and improve too?

  • Cuz we’ve all got stuff to work on

  • What happens when Christians die?

    • What if they screwed up right before they died?

• Where do souls go after death before the new Earth?

  • Perhaps we should leave it a mystery

  • Some people have died and been revived

    • Listen to them

  • But the Bible doesn’t explain the process

    • Refining fire

    • Absent from the body; present with the Lord (2 Cor 5:8)

      • But I’m present with Him now 

        • He is omnipresent

    • Matter is eternal

      • It’s just been reshaped over and over again

      • Energy never dies

      • Changes form

      • It would make sense that a similar pattern is happening beyond this earth

    • “Jesus loves us regardless. Don't tell a Christian that because it's gonna upset him.” - unknown

      • There’s no hellfire in that message

• Show me where Jesus says if you make a misstep, you’re gonna burn in Hell for eternity

  • He didn’t try to scare people into loving Him

• Hebrews 1:3

  • If Christ is a reflection of the Father

    • What about Old Testament slaughterings?

  • Stop focusing on words from the Bible

    • Putting the Bible over Christ is idolatry

  • “I don't need to read the Bible. I need to read who Christ is.” - Scott

  • Words are all we have to describe God

    • If we succeed, He is too small

    • He sent His son to show us

• Jesus

  • Not politician

  • Not a renowned carpenter or mason

  • He was a nobody

    • Calling Him the Son of God was an insult to Caesar

      • That was Caesar’s title

    • It was given to a Jewish rabbi who was not popular among His own people

      • He was seen as a heretic

      • They wanted to throw Him off a cliff

        • Luke 4:23-30

        • He spoke against their nationalism idol

      • The Kingdom of Heaven is for all people

        • Not just Israel

      • When you’re oppressed, you want your oppressor to be annihilated

      • But God loves Rome

      • Just as much as Israel

        • Fightin words

      • What if we said God loves the Taliban and wants the war to end?

      • The Jews believed that they were the chosen people, and the Messiah was coming just for them

        • Jesus said everyone was equal in the Kingdom

        • The Message is for the entire world

48:40 Christianity’s power

• Not a minority

• Not oppressed

• Still want to be tribalistic and put others out

  • Want our enemies to suffer in Hell

• The people with the true problem are often supposedly believers

  • Sheep and goats

49:45 Post-death purification

• We want to think, “This life is hard. As soon as I die, I’ll go to Heaven and be happy.”

• But we must be salted with fire

  • Scary thought

  • But God is good and loving

    • It will be beneficial

    • It’s all for our restoration and healing

  • It’s a mystery

    • But we know who God is

    • We don’t have to be scared of it

      • Even if it’s hard

  • He is Love

51:46 Quoting Scripture

• “I really do believe that Paul believed that there would be some who would be eternally annihilated, but I also believe that Paul obviously believed that ultimately, everybody would be saved.” - Ari

• The problem is, you show someone one verse

  • They show you another that proves the opposite point

  • The Bible is inconsistent

• Paul said meat sacrificed to idols was ok

  • John said no

• John said you need Jesus and the Law

  • Paul said no Law

• The Bible gives inconsistent eschatology

  • It points to different authors’ beliefs

    • Not necessarily what Jesus said

• Paul vacillated between some being annihilated and all being saved

  • How can you argue when both views are in the Bible?

• There’s obviously human error

  • So we just have to take it and decide what’s most moral and logical

• People will say Scripture cannot really mean one thing because it says the opposite somewhere else

  • Cannot try to reconcile them

  • Just accept that it’s different viewpoints

  • Focus on the main points

• If you find something immoral or inconsistent, reject it

  • God commanding slaughter in the Old Testament

    • Not moral

    • Jesus didn’t do that

• Paul believed like a good Jew that some would be annihilated

  • But then he wrestled with the truth

    • God is gonna save all people

    • Had a revelation

  • A lot of Jews struggled to accept Jesus because they didn’t expect the Messiah to die and resurrect like Christ did

    • Why is it hard to accept that Paul may have changed what he understood to be true?

• Other contradiction

  • Jacob I loved; Esau I hated

  • Vs God shows no partiality

• In Romans, Paul is arguing one side of a case

  • And then the other side

  • He’s of split mind trying to make peace

1:00:22 Repent

• That word is preached to mean turn 180° from your sin

• But it means rethink; change

• Paul started with black and white; good and evil 

  • Christ calls us to think outside that paradigm

• Could say that this is Hell and we are currently being purified

  • And once we get to be with Christ, it’ll be done

  • But Jesus says His Kingdom is here

  • We can see His glory here, in this life

1:01:54 Jesus is a peacemaker

• Parables of lost things

• Lost, found, party

• Sons

  • One squandered his wealth

  • The other stayed home, but never really knew his father

  • The father makes peace with each of them

    • We can’t cast aside our pious brothers with different convictions

    • They can’t hate those of us who have strayed

  • His love never changes for either one

  • The Prodigal God by Tim Keller

• “I need to love these people who are telling me I’m going to Hell.” - Scott

• In Scripture, when Jesus gets mad at Pharisees

  • Maybe He’s full of compassion

  • The word we translate “Fool” or “Hypocrite” could mean “Actor”

    • Human authority isn’t real

      • It’s just actors dressed up in costumes and playing a part

• We are all children of God

  • Creation is longing for us to realize we’re sons and daughters of the Most High

    • Romans 8:19

    • No need to fight

1:04:41 Is the Bible meaningless, then?

• No

• It has deep meaning

• The above explanation of the prodigal son revealed new insights

  • Every time Abby hears that story, she learns something new

• That’s why it has survived empires and centuries

  • It’s not just a how-to guide on getting on God’s good or bad side

  • The stories 

    • Tell us about ourselves as humans

    • Give us something to think about

    • Let us contemplate our relationship with God

• Everyone is searching and discovering

  • Coming to different conclusions

    • Let’s embrace everyone’s journey as equals

• “Loving God with all of your mind is to relentlessly keep questioning and keep trying to figure it out and not be stuck in a spot where you're unwilling to change your mind.” - Craig

• The human capacity to get things wrong is endless

  • People imagine God guiding the authors’ pens as they wrote Scripture

  • Reality is, people were involved

    • People mess up

1:07:54 Biblical cases against universalism

• Conditional immortality

  • Dare We Hope?

    • There are contradictions in Scripture about eschatology

    • Hold these tensions as humbly as we can

      • And not presume that everyone will or won’t be saved

  • Best argument against it

    • That All Shall Be Saved

      • Best argument against Hell

      • If God permits some to be eternally lost, then He is evil

        • Even if He permits them to damn themselves

        • He cannot possibly be purely loving and just

      • Humans do not exist in a vacuum

        • We’re shaped by those around us

        • If one damns itself, others around it might make different choices and end up damned

        • Could lead to the collapse of humanity

          • In the same way, everybody must be saved for anybody to be

  • Libertarian freedom is stupid

  • If God would give us sufficient evidence to see that He is everything we need, everyone would choose Him

    • Annihilationism fails

      • Even though it’s in Scripture

• The Bible is clear on Hell

  • Contradictions

  • More clearly supports universalism

    • Starting with Abraham being a blessing to all nations (Gen 22:18)

• Allegory and truths

  • God is love

    • Read this into other Scriptures

  • Definition of eternal life

    • John 17:3

    • Knowing God

      • Depart from Me; I never knew you

        • You didn’t know My true character

      • Even Paul sometimes did something with the wrong mindset

        • Big trouble for casting out a demon out of annoyance

  • We are loved regardless of our good works

  • Doing good for the sake of doing good

  • Heaven and Hell is often about

    • A reward

    • Avoidance of a punishment

      • Fear-based

      • God did not give us a spirit of fear

    • We should be following God for the benefit of our neighbors as well as ourselves

  • Harmony is loving ourselves and others equally

• What’s the point of Jesus dying on the cross if everyone gets in?

  • The Gospel isn’t our ticket into Heaven

    • It’s that the Kingdom is here

• God is love, but He is also just

  • What is justice?

    • People think of it as prison and death

    • God’s justice is restorative

    • Healing what is lost

      • Bringing us into a right relationship with Him

    • “Justice isn't somebody stealing something and getting their hand cut off; justice is that item being returned.” - Abby

    • When Hitler is restored, he will love those he harmed

      • And they’ll be restored to be able to love him also

  • Restoration doesn’t seem possible based on our experiences

    • But God is moving

• Live your values until people start asking questions

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Related Blog Post

60. God or Government - Who's in Charge of the World? with Pete Rollo of Rival Nations & Abby Cleckner

About this episode

In this episode, Craig and his better podcast half, Abby Cleckner, are joined by Peter Rollo, founder of the website and blog project Rival Nations. Pete shares the history of Rival Nations, why he started it, why he was anonymous for so long, and where the project is headed. 

If you’ve ever questioned if the world of politics, on any side, be it liberal, conservative, anarchist, or libertarian always seems prone to the ways of this world, to violence. This episode looks at why that is, and why we, as Christians are called to a different kingdom, and we must continue to abide by the ways of that Kingdom, the one Jesus showed us, rather than pursue earthly powers.

Too often we find Christians falling into the fallacy that, if we just get more Christians elected into office things will change, and God’s will can be implemented, with the right leaders, but this is the illusion we see Jesus reject time and time again in the Bible. How do we get to this conclusion? By looking at what Jesus has to teach us. In the second half of the episode, Pete breaks down his article, Christians Can’t Be in Government, to show us exactly who is at the forefront of political power (hint: it is not God!).

We see Israel fall when it turns to earthly Kings, and we see Jesus reject the role of Messiah, in an effort to show us God’s way, not Man’s. Rival Nations is a digital archive of Pete’s theological journey, and it all started with seeing Jesus as a political force, not in his pursuit of political power, but, rather, in his rejection of it. Let us know what you think and the comments, or by sharing your thoughts on social media!

Episode Timestamps:

1:46 Pete’s Background

• Public ministry and expressing “radical” viewpoints

4:08 The difficulty of engaging those we disagree with

6:31 Peter’s Political Journey 

• No political ideology or government aligns with Jesus

• Jesus is the alternative to the earthly missions of political movements

• Jesus is political

8:27 Creation of Rival Nations (formerly done anonymously)

• Peter created the website as a tool for himself

11:30 How the Political realization of Jesus transformed Peter’s Theology

• Word Gospel was not a Hebrew word, but a word caesar was using and Jesus co-opted the phrase

• Early church’s focus on Jesus

• Modern church’s alignment with the Roman Catholic church vs. the early church of historic Christianity

• Anabaptist 

16:17 Peter’s Article - Christians Can’t Be in Government

• If you take Jesus seriously, we must abstain from seeking political power

• The myth of “getting more Christians in office will fix things”

• George W. Bush claimed to follow Jesus vs. his actions while in office (war)

• Can a Christian run a secular government, without engaging in violence

• Governments cannot love their enemy the way Jesus calls on us to love ours

• Satan offered Jesus political power and Jesus rejected it

  • Politics pulls us away from God?

  • Satan wants more Christians in office

20:22 Did God create the government (or any government)?

• 1 Samuel 8

• Humanity was given authority over animals and nature - not humanity

• Israel had no king and was supposed to be an example, but they fell into wanting kings

  • Violence always comes from wanting to control others

• The whole power structure has to be turned upside down to follow Jesus

• The notion of “Jesus for President” can never make sense with the current system

27:06 Jesus being tempted with political power and rejecting it

• Jesus avoided term Messiah

  • Had violence in its history

• People kept trying to make him king

• Satan directly tempts him

• Jesus is not going to come back and be violent

  • Why would Jesus change his mind?

• Jesus will not “slay out enemies”

  • Our propensity toward violence drives us to this thinking

• The myth of American Cowboy

  • “Might makes right”

  • Our enormous military power

  33:07 Opt-Out and Follow Jesus

• America is not our nation, Christnation is

• We are ambassadors of the Kingdom of Heaven

• But what about paul using his Roman citizenship?

  • We do what we need to survive practically and leverage situations for our mission for God and further the Gospel

• Accepting Jesus as king of your life is the only citizenship you get to choose to participate in

  • What paul talked about was a rival nation to Rome

38:59 “God puts people in political power”

• Reading Romans 13 without reading Romans 12

• Old vs. New Testament

• 3 Temptations of Jesus

• Is Satan only interested in Jesus worshiping him?

• If we know the temptation, why would we partake in it?

• Does Romans 13 work for Nazi Germany?

  • Then it doesn't work for you and America

44:49 God in the Process of Resorting All Things

• Escetoloy

• Times Theology

• Eternal Torment 

48:10 Connect with Peter and Rival Nations

• Rivalnations.org

Facebook Page, Instagram, Twitter, RSS

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56. Following God Beyond the Blue Line with Terrell Carter

About this episode

Terrell Carter is a pastor and the president of a community development organization. At 16, he felt the call to ministry to do what he can to improve people’s lives and help different groups understand each other. At 23, he thought he could do that as a police officer, and they offered him benefits that would support his growing family. After 5 years, he had to quit because he wouldn’t stand for the corruption in the force and testified against his partner. He’s written several books and runs Rise, a nonprofit organization working to connect communities with local institutions to empower the revitalization of neighborhoods in Greater St. Louis, while pastoring a church and raising his children. 

Terrell has come on the podcast to shed light on his unique perspectives and experiences. He shares with us what it was like growing up black in a predominantly white community, how the police force didn’t fit with his life of Kingdom mission, and what it looks like to actually carry out the call of God to care for other people. One of his life goals is to bring different groups of people together through an understanding of each other, and today he is doing that by sharing his own story with us, who mostly come from a different background than his.

Episode Timestamps:

5:23 Terrell’s story

• African American

• Has a twin brother

• Grandparents and parents were teen parents

• Parents got married, but didn't stay together after Dad went into the army

  • But Dad’s parents helped raise them

• Parents didn’t get through high school

• Mom got in with bad crowds

  • Boys moved in with grandparents

  • She was murdered when boys were 7

• Everything is dedicated to his grandparents because without them, he would have never succeeded

• Moved in with Dad’s new family in Texas at 14

• Only issues were people being suspicious of them since it was a predominantly white town

  • But Brother graduated 4th in class; he graduated 11th

  • His brother won several writing competitions; he won awards for art

  • Both played sports

  • Both earned academic and athletic scholarships

  • Brother still plays baseball

• At 16, Terrell heard the call to ministry

  • Not just made to soak everything up

    • But to influence God’s people from a leadership position

• Returned to St Louis after graduating high school

  • It was a completely different place

  • In 4 years, the community went from majority homeowners to gang members

  • The first thing their grandparents told them was: don’t wear red or blue

  • Still a majority white city

    • Now, everyone thought black young men were all criminals

      • Didn’t know that Terrell was in Bible college

      • His brother had just placed in a huge writing competition

      • They were both in college and working jobs and creating beauty and attending church

• Married

  • Both he and his brother wanted to be husbands and fathers

• When his wife got pregnant, he looked for a job to provide for all their needs

  • Became a police officer

    • Paid for him to finish college

    • Pension

• Started on patrol; wound up on the toughest corner in the city. At night.

• Reassigned to plainclothes narcotics investigator

  • Kicking down doors, search warrants…

  • Turns out, his partner was into illegal activities

    • Terrell didn’t lie for him

      • Because he fears God

      • And because his partner was disrespecting people who were in a different place in life than he was

    • His partner did about 5 years in federal prison

    • When Terrell found out he was going to actually testify in court, he quit his job

      • He was being threatened by multiple people

      • “I had been told in no uncertain terms that if I tried to stand up for those kinds of things, then I would find myself out on the street by myself and something was going to happen to me.” -Terrell

• Went through multiple careers

• Got second doctorate

• Now president of Rise, a community development organization

  • Also, exhibiting art

  • Writing books

  • And pastoring a church

• Life calling: to try and help people understand each other and see God’s image in one another

  • That’s really everyone's calling

18:39 Why Terrell needed to come on the show

• Craig heard Terrell on Michael Storm’s show, Toward Anarchy

• Craig grew up in West Texas with maybe one black kid K-8

  • In middle school in San Angelo, there was a mix of races

  • High school in Fort Worth, was even more, diverse

    • Got to know kids in his class who didn’t fit negative stereotypes

    • Played sports together

  • Now in Memphis, the most diverse city he’s lived in

• “One of the challenges we have as Christians in the 21st century is we don't embrace that diversity.” - Terrell

• 3 books were written to help white Christians Understand that their experience is different from everyone else's

  • Healing Racial Divides: Finding Strength in our Diversity

  • Police on a Pedestal: Responsible Policing in a Culture of Worship

  • Taking Apart Bootstrap Theology: Gospel of Generosity and Justice

• MLK said that the most segregated hour of the week is during church

  • People worship with people they’re similar to

  • If there’s someone of a different race within a majority church, chances are, they're of the same economic background as the rest of the congregation

    • Still have a common understanding of the world; speak the same language

23:12 Terrell’s time on the force

• Arresting somebody knowing they were a child of God

  • “Whatever their life circumstances may have been… God created them and I don't get to judge them based on how their life turned out.” - Terrell

• There was a church parking lot in St. Louis where he used to write police reports

  • The pastor got killed by a kid he had taken under his wing

    • No one wanted to take over his position

    • Terrell’s seminary asked him to step in

• He worried someone he arrested would come in and lash out at him

  • He had a signal to his wife to get the kids and flee

  • Someone he’d arrested for domestic violence approached him

    • And said thank you

    • Terrell had treated him like a human

      • Talked to him on the way to jail

      • Encouraged him to turn his life around

        • He did

  • Terrell got in trouble at work for trying to help people improve

    • The police department just wants the cops to gather statistics and arrest people, not care about them

• “I didn't treat people like they were animals. I tried to treat them like they were children of God and that they may be experiencing a negative life circumstance, but that didn't have to be where they were going.” - Terrell

  • Not the normal attitude

  • They were never told to go help people; they were told to not do anything stupid

• Could work a secondary job (like security) in uniform with all rights and power of a policeman

  • A sergeant told him to stop and just get overtime instead

29:48 Craig’s background

• Wore a thin blue line bracelet

• Defending all cops’ actions

  • “They’re just following/enforcing the law”  

• Realized police are there to protect the state, not citizens

• Then George Floyd got killed

  • Murdered

  • Craig would have once been one of the guys saying, “If he had just not resisted, he would not have been killed”

32:02 How we got here

• White people are in power and everyone else is subject

  • That’s the system that's in place

    •  Doesn't make white people bad

  • Certain people groups’ existence has been criminalized

    • Black women have been dubbed “welfare queens” – by a president

      • For the record, white women use social services more

    • Black men are assumed to be violent criminals

      • The culture of fear surrounding black people has been built up

    • Policing began to control the Native American population trying to get their land back

      • And then escaped or released slaves

• Police are there to protect against all crimes and criminalized peoples

  • “It doesn't matter what a police officer does, as long as they make white people feel better or feel protected, then we're okay.” -Terrell

  • But if police treat white people like they do minorities, they get in legal trouble

    • Minorities are believed to deserve it

• White people often ask, “Why didn’t he just cooperate?”

  • Why can’t they just do what they’re told??

    • Sounds like a slavery question

  • Why can’t they get along with everyone else?

  • “That's from a position of power when you have not experienced what these people groups have experienced. And so that's part of what the challenge is.” - Terrell

  • The state is an agent of slavery

• Sports example

  • Lebron James tried to speak out

    • Was silenced

    • “Just because he makes millions of dollars doesn't mean that people respect or view him as fully human. No, they view him as a commodity for their entertainment.” - Terrell

38:18 Trying to reconcile policing as a Christian (not to mention a pastor)

• “There's no way to reconcile them other than saying, ‘I'm just going to do what I'm told. I'm not going to think about it.’” - Terrell

  • Told himself there were no other prospects

• From the very beginning, people were expecting him to falsify reports

• He was told to go with the system

  • Pushback was dangerous

41:43 Terrell’s life now

• Has a handful of friends from the force

• Many officers have forgotten the past

  • But writing books opens old wounds

• Most are still mad he didn't toe the line 

• All his friends from the force kept being cops

  • Some acquaintances quit

• Several readers of his books have told him they wish they could have been as brave as he was

  • Or that someone in their department would have stood up because maybe they would have joined him

44:04 Rise

• Community development corporation that seeks to make safer, healthier, more equitable communities and neighborhoods in St. Louis city and St. Louis, Madison, and St. Claire counties in Illinois

• Builds or assists others in building affordable housing

  • Government funds cut the rent just about in half for those in need

  • Give funds to female or minority-owned construction companies

  • Fund developers who are looking to improve the health of the community

  • Assist cities and municipalities with planning

• Fits pretty well with the call to make people's lives better

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55. Is Taxation Slavery? with Patrick Carroll

About this episode

Have you ever wanted to take a Biblical journey through taxes? We are delighted to have Patrick Carroll back on the show today to talk us through an article he shared entitled: Taxation is Slavery: A Biblical Case. Patrick Carroll is a scholar, writer, and teacher of Biblical economic philosophy. He comments on current events from an anarchist perspective in his articles for Fee.org, where he's also involved with the Hazlitt Apprenticeship. Patrick has previously been on our show for episode 16, If You Vote, You Can't Complain, and has contributed multiple articles for syndication on our blog.

In this episode, we go through the Bible together and take a close look at where and when God took clear stands on taxation. What does our Bible study reveal? Taxation makes people into slaves. God never intended for us to have the government man has created. The kingdom of Heaven is upside down, and it is our job to spread His way of peace and love in the world to flip it back.

You learn more about Patrick and connect with him on Twitter, Facebook, and on his blog: The Prudent Navigator.

Episode Timestamps:

2:59 Is taxation slavery?

• Libertarians often say it’s theft, but is it worse than that?

• We need people to think and understand

• Canada is worse/more draconian than the US… at this point

• Most people scoff

• Slavery is when a person is owned by another human

  • Ownership is control of something

  • If we own an object, we can take it anywhere and do whatever we want with it

  • The state gets to decide what drugs we take, how we live our lives…

• We don’t have the brutal 1800’s style of slavery

  • But perhaps a more insidious current form

    • Savings are taxed away

    • Inflation

    • Regulations

    • Military Industrial Complex

    • Prison Complex

    • War on drugs

    • Not as visible, but still there

• The state is good at hiding it

  • But they claim to give us our rights

    • Our rights come from God

      • We’re created with them

6:00 Human government

• 1 Samuel 8

  • The Israelites demand a king 

    • To be like other nations

    • Israelites were supposed to be holy or different from other nations

      • God was supposed to be their King

    • God has Samuel warn them

      • The king will tax you

      • He'll take your children when he wants them

      • You will be his slaves

• “Christians who advocate for human rulers today tend to assume that God is only opposed to unjust rulers.” - Patrick

  • They’ll point to China and say it’s wrong because it’s authoritarian

  • God never says, “Kingship is a good idea, as long as it’s limited.” - Patrick

  • “He says, ‘He’s going to tax you,’ as if that’s inherently wrong.”

• There has never been a human-made government who had everyone’s best interests at heart

• So many in the US believe our government was made by God and is just

  • How can it be from God when it kills so many people and other parts of His creation overseas?

    • So many atrocities

      • From foreign policy to war on drugs

• People argue that we’re being taxed to help the poor

  • Whereas kings only taxed to get rich

  • The government is not helping the poor

  • Jesus didn't give his money to Caesar and ask him to help the poor

    • He told his disciples to do it

    • He modeled how to help

  • Real charity isn't forced

  • There is no instance in Scripture of the government being used to promote general welfare

• The rich’s taxes

  • Many people advocate for raising wealthy people’s taxes

    • Goes against 2/10 Commandments

      • Don’t envy

      • Don’t steal

  • Do the rich have a duty to give to the poor out of their wealth, since they have been given much?

    • Yes, but that doesn't give us the right to force them

  • People get mad because the rich find loopholes through paying taxes

    • If you can find a way around it, do it!

      • Use the money you save to help the poor

• Outsourcing sin

  • Give people power and let them kill the people we don’t like

    • And claim innocence

15:15 Examples from the Old Testament

• Conquered nations paid tribute to the conquering king

  • No longer working for themselves

• Whoever slays Goliath (1 Samuel 17:25)

  • Will be made rich

  • Marry the princess

  • And have his father’s house set free

    • AKA exempt from taxes

    • The Hebrew word used here for “free” is used throughout the Old Testament as the opposite of enslaved

    • “If being set free from slavery is equivalent to not having to pay taxes, then the implication is that having to pay taxes is being a slave.” - Patrick

  • The death of King Solomon (1 Kings 12)

    • The people asked his son for their yoke to be lightened

      • Yoke is often used to talk about slavery

    • Led to tax revolt and division of the kingdom

    • Solomon’s son asked 2 groups of people for advice

      • The elders said to listen to the people, lighten their taxes, and they’ll love you forever and gladly serve you

      • His younger friends advised him to tax even more heavily

        • He listened to them

  • Isaiah 58

    • Isaiah asked that every yoke be broken 

      • Taxation is talked about as a yoke

        • So, shouldn’t we want it to be broken and the oppressed set free?

21:21 We are not just oppressed; we are slaves

• Not because the government is unjust

  • Even if they were just, they don’t have the right to tell us how to live

• I should be able to choose whether or not I live under the government

• Everyone knows the black community was enslaved

  • Also, the Irish

  • But they say we are free

• If you have to ask permission to be free, you are a slave

• Christians should walk away

  • We have one King

  • He did not establish these earthly governments

  • Follow Jesus Christ

• Our current system will never change

  • We can’t keep doing the same thing and expect different results

  • Even if one guy lowers our taxes, the next might not

  • It’s not working

  • We have to walk away

• “Understand that, to the extent that we participate in government, we are complicit in enslaving our neighbors.” - Patrick

  • Being police officers or in the military subjugates other citizens

    • Those officers take an oath to defend citizens from enemies foreign or domestic

      • If they really did that, they'd be protecting us from politicians

        • Not from the agents they sent in to pretend to attack the capitol

      • Definition of terrrorism: “The [unlawful] violence and intimidation that is used normally against civilians for political ends”

        • Had to add “unlawful” so police could intimidate

  • Voluntary society security

    • Not violent and intimidating

    • Run by the market, not politicians

      • Without police and military, politicians are nothing but people with bad ideas

    • Private security guards already outnumber our police force

28:30 New Testament Examples

• We are Jesus-centric here

• Matthew 17

  • Rulers do not tax their sons; only citizens

    • The sons are free

    • Israelites are sons of God

      • Therefore should not have to pay the temple tax

  • The most literal translation of the word for free is “not slaves”

    • Implying that those who pay taxes are slaves

  • Jesus got this across by asking Peter questions

    • He always made people think

32:00 Nehemiah (chapters 5 and 9)

• Israel living under foreign rule

• They took out loans on their fields to pay their taxes

  • Now, they owed interest

  • Their children were enslaved

  • They were powerless because they owned nothing

• Nehemiah became a governor

  • Did not lay a heavy burden

    • Because he feared God

    • He saw taxing people too heavily as problematic

33:18 What constitutes too heavy of a tax?

• Our taxes are much higher than most ancient times

• The American Revolution was fought over what we would now call a very low tax rate

• The point is, any level of tax means subjugation and theft

34:03 Israelites’ plea to God

• They are slaves in the land He gave them to enjoy

• All the fruits go to the king God put over them as punishment

• The kings ruled their bodies and livestock

• Some say they would not have been slaves if they were ruled by an Israelite

  • The line between foreigners and neighbors is not always clear

  • Christians are foreigners in all nations

35:37 1 Peter 2

• In Greek, “human institution/authority” is really “human creation”

  • Governments are manmade

  • God set up priests

    • Government was not something He wanted to be a part of His creation

• Jeremiah 27

  • Submit to your punishment of kings ruling

  • Romans 13

  • Doesn’t mean the empire is just

    • In Isaiah, God uses Assyria to punish Israel

      • But also punishes Assyria for their arrogance

38:55 Obedience vs submission

• Rosa Parks submitted, but didn’t obey

• You don’t have to obey if the law is unjust

  • But you have to submit to the consequences

• Submission is a general attitude; obedience is on a law-by-law basis

• Plenty of Biblical examples of people disobeying the law and being deemed righteous

• If man’s law breaks God’s, we follow God’s

• Many realized Caesar’s rule was illegitimate and wanted to overthrow it

  • Paul wrote Romans 13 in response

  • Violence is not the way of the Kingdom

• Live as people who are free

  • But don’t use your freedom to sin

41:44 Can a real anarchist pay taxes?

• “I’m not paying taxes; I’m avoiding jail.” - Larkin Rose

• They steal them without my consent from my paycheck

• I want to stay out of jail and spread the Kingdom

• Romans 12:18

  • “Be at peace with everyone.”

• Paul’s number one priority was to get the Gospel out there

  • If paying taxes is going to make some people view you more positively, do it

  • If we’re going around causing trouble, even if it’s justified, it’s not going to make people view us in a positive light

• Peter told actual slaves to stay with their masters and serve them well

  •  In order to possibly win their souls

  • 1 Peter 2:18

44:18 Civil disobedience

• Not revolution

  • Even if you win, there’s still somebody in charge who uses violence to get what they want

• MLK and his people did it right

  • No fighting back

• Christians should be disobeying and taking the punishment when laws are garbage

46:37 Why we’re anarchists

• We see governments behaving just as God warned us they would

• They want us to respond with violence

  • That’s not how you teach about Jesus

• We make change by promoting the Kingdom of Christ peacefully

• Obey God rather than man

  • Acts 5:29

• The 2 greatest commandments (Matthew 22:36-40)

  • Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength

  • Love your neighbor as yourself

  • “If a law is passed that gets in the way of me loving my neighbor, I will disobey that law.” - Patrick

49:30 How to make change

• Talk about it

• Preach about it

• Help people understand we are being enslaved

• Matthew 20:20-28

  • We live in an upside-down Kingdom

  • We should be turning people’s worldviews upside down

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