In this episode, we are joined by long-time Bad Roman contributor, Abby Cleckner, to discuss her article from July 2020, Never Follow Orders. We are all capable of horrible things. With this knowledge in mind, It is important that each of us take responsibility for our actions, consider carefully why we are doing what we do, and don’t blame those in authority over us for our actions.
Studies have proven that the majority of people will do anything, even harm another person, if someone in authority demands or instructs them to.
Understanding that we are all susceptible to committing atrocities if we find ourselves in positions of power or under the command of those with power, enables us to be honest about the consequences of allowing individuals and organizations to acquire too much of it.
When we deny that we are capable of doing horrible things, we erroneously begin to respect the authority of another person more than that of God’s or our own values.
Abby Cleckner has contributed several articles to our blog and is now co-host for The Bad Roman Podcast! This episode was recorded before she accepted that position. You can find her on Facebook and Instagram.
Episode Timestamps:
2:46 People are submitting to the government as if nothing bad has ever come of it
People forget things... One trip around the fishbowl, and they’re done.
There was a time in this country when people would say, ‘You can’t do that! This is America.’ You can’t say that anymore.
- Craig
4:40 The next generation
As schools have become even more prison-like
Perhaps the next generation will protect their children from a similar experience
8:19 Connection between The Nuremberg Trials, The Key Takeaways of the Milgram Experiment & Vietnam Draft Objectors
The Nazis were the ones on trial
Following orders is not an excuse for committing atrocities
Most used the defense: “I was just following orders”
Dr. Milgram wondered if the average person was susceptible to would join a movement like the Nazis? How was it that there were so many people involved?
The majority of people think Nazis were unusually evil, and that they themselves would never do such crimes, under any orders.
Milgram’s experiment provided evidence that a statistically significant amount of people are likely to carry out actions, that they may personally question, upon instruction from an authority figure.
“The draw to follow authority is so much more powerful than we realize.”
In the Vietnam War Draft, one man refused to fight because of what he had learned from being part of the Milgram experiment.
Almost anyone would follow almost any order to harm someone.
- Abby, on what the Millgram Experiemnt can teach us
11:40 “Just doing their job”
This is how we excuse police brutality
They take an oath to the Constitution
and then they don't follow the Constitution; they follow orders
Politicians make unconstitutional laws, and the police enforce them without question
12:12 The Milgram Experiment explained
A test to see how applicable the Nuremberg Defense is
How many people would do anything they were told and claim it was good because they were following orders?
How far would the average person go?
The setup
People were told they were part of an experiment to test how punishment affects performance
An actor on the other side of the wall pretended to be receiving worse and worse electric shocks as they failed to perform the task
The participant had to push a button to administer the shocks and turn up the dial as time went on
Eventually, the actor starts begging to quit
Then they start yelling and banging on the walls
and then they go silent
Most people stopped at some point and asked if they should continue because the other person seemed to be in distress
The people running the experiment convinced them that it was very important that they finish the trial
65% of people went all the way to the end
They were willing to kill a stranger
Just because another stranger told them to
Everybody thinks they'd be in the 35% who would never do that
That's why it's so important to know about this experiment
You likely wouldn't be
Unless we’re aware of our tendencies and consciously choose to stand up
It's not necessarily bad that everyone naturally follows authority
It keeps society running smoothly when every person isn't constantly fighting back
16:10 The point of her article
In every small decision, we make every day, we must ask ourselves:
Do I believe in this?
Am I only doing this because somebody told me to?
How would I explain my actions to someone else?
Take ownership of your actions
It is your fault, even if someone in authority ordered you to do that
“The problem isn't the police; they're just doing their job.”
Police not taking responsibility is the problem
Yes, the politicians making bad laws is a problem, but it really wouldn't be if the people under them made their own decisions and refused to carry out orders
The everyday officers are the ones taking action
18:44 Christians are no better
Christians are willing to follow authority, even if it's harmful to someone
Conversation with Eloquilt will be available Feb 10, 2022
Politicians steal, murder, and commit all kinds of sins
Voting them into office is sort of like asking them to commit those sins for you
Christian culture puts authority on a pedestal
We are taught to train our children to “respect” authority at all times
Romans 13 spouters
If someone's in authority, it's because God put them there, so we have to do whatever they say
People quote this first and then run away before they have to defend it
Christians are kind of obsessed with authority.
- Abby
If these guys are in power because God put them there, and they're not following the laws of God, we're not supposed to obey that just because they're in power
- Craig
People misread scripture as an easy way out
If you have to do whatever the authority tells you and you don't have to make difficult decisions, then you don't have to deal with the consequences or guilt.
A common theme in the Bible is to disobey authority in order to follow God
If you vote for someone you don't like just because you hate the other person
That doesn't actually make sense
That's voting out of fear, not because there's someone good
Any decision made out of fear should be reconsidered
23:00 He made me do it!
Take responsibility for your actions
Recognize that nobody can make you have an emotion
or take an action
or say certain words
Practice with the small, everyday decisions
24:27 The soap opera of politics
They put in an older version of Trump
You've been told you won, so you're happy. Or you've been told you're who you lost, so you're mad.
- Abby
Nothing has changed or will change with the state.
- Craig
27:09 Muhammad Ali
Refused the draft for Vietnam
A lot of people called him a coward, but he went to prison for his convictions
Gave up his career
Lost his title
Military Drafts
Governments forcing citizens to fight their wars
Why don't the leaders just duke it out?
Saddam Hussein offered to duel George Bush Sr.
He asked, why get all these people involved?
Why do thousands or millions of people have to die for problems between politicians?
- Abby
31:00 Martin Luther King Jr.
No violence, but also no obedience
If we live as a community and take care of each other, we can just ignore the government because we won't need anything they have to offer
If everyone ignores them, they will become obsolete and lose power
A community can provide much better than the government because they can see exactly what you need and not just give you the standard package
Everything the government does is] to increase their power. Nothing they do is benevolence or the kindness of their own heart.
- Abby
People are getting vaccinated so they can have the freedom to travel
That is not freedom!
When you see someone getting sprayed with a fire hose, and they respond calmly, you want to join them because obviously, what they're doing has meaning and a quiet power
The aggressor wasn't those seeking freedom; it was the state
The Kingdom of God is upside down like that
It gets power from love and non-violence
Not money and might
36:40 Making choices at work
I have to do things I don't agree with that work because they're paying me, but I'll raise a stink about it first and tell them why I think it's wrong and demand that they explain why it's not.
- Craig
To an extent. If I disagree with how we're getting something done, I'll still do the task the way they taught me.
For every decision I make sure, I consciously decide what I'm going to do for myself, I have to acknowledge that I am the one making the choice, and there is still a point at which I draw the line in the sand and refuse.
You have to recognize the strong inner pull to follow authority and practice questioning it. Recognize that you're not harmless and that you could be talked into doing horrible things.
- Abby
39:32 The government unicorn
Most people agree that politicians are evil
But they still think the government is good
How is this possible when the government is made up of politicians?
People in it do horrible things, but the unicorn of government as a whole is good?
People think if they believe hard enough in the unicorn, things will work out in the end
The unicorn does not exist!
Let's talk about what actually exists. What you fully admit you hate and is harming you personally. That's what the government is. It's not this unicorn that you imagined.
- Abby
People believe that if the correct letter is by someone's name, then they have everything right because the other side is completely wrong.
Many people on the right have an innate sense of not wanting politicians to tell them what to do
But at the same time, they
back the blue
support the troops
believe in authority
Live with strong cognitive dissonance
People on the left see the government almost as God
Someone who will provide & be benevolent
Both tribes are cruel to the other side
42:35 The Bad Romans
We want people who are on the fence to listen
Who agree with 75% of what we say
People need to just start thinking logically about the world
About how,
economics work
government's involvement affects us
people's rights
If people start off focusing on their personal responsibility, the rest will follow
We should never, ever tell someone else how they are allowed to live,
even if our philosophy is truly better
even if they’re living as a slave
You don't necessarily know what's best for someone else
God's will for them might not be what you expect and no one has perfect theology
You're probably have changed your opinion many times
So will other people
Don't come down on them too harshly
This is using your intellectual authority to make people feel stupid
In the Kingdom of Heaven, we leave space for their hearts to heal
We didn't get where we are overnight
If people see us being kind, it might Inspire them to stick around
49:00 The empire will fall soon; we must be ready
We need to come together as a voluntary society so we can take care of each other
Working towards a change in politicians is not going to help us, because power can corrupt even the most idealistic person
They knew full well, it was an experiment and you were randomly chosen to be a guard or a prisoner, but yeah, their, their authoritarianism just got very quickly, really out of control.
- Abby
We've got to move away from our cruel human nature end towards the heart of Christ
God created us all good
But we easily end up in bondage, especially to the love of power
We need to be aware and on guard, because we are all capable of horrible things
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More from Abby Cleckner
How much of your time do you spend complaining about government actions or politicians? Do you cringe when you see political ads? Do you feel like the country is full of unjust laws that oppress people or even make your own life harder every day? We’ve established that your vote doesn’t matter, yet you will be inundated on a daily basis with ads telling you how important it is for you to vote, even that it’s the most important thing you can do.