About this Episode
The Bad Roman is joined by Jordan Swaim of The Peaceful Way podcast, which explores the ideas, concepts, and mechanisms that produce peace and reduce violence. Jordan is well-versed in research on civil disobedience and explains some of the mechanisms that make it work. He talks about some sources he used to articulate a position on civil disobedience and how many people a movement needs to be effective. Jordan points out that an ‘intransigent minority’, a few people who refuse to go along with oppressive systems, can successfully use civil disobedience. He points out that even if you can justify a violent revolution and successfully overturn a government, the desired outcome will not be peaceful. Because it is in the nature of violence to multiply, it is dangerous to start.
Jordan is in Canada and switched jobs when he saw vaccine mandates coming for his workplace because “it is always inappropriate for your employer to tell you which pharmaceuticals you must consume.” He watched the trucker protests closely, and he shares some little-known insights with Craig as they discuss how the principles of nonviolent resistance were at work and how the mandates all quietly fizzled out within weeks of the protests proving their effectiveness.
Jordan Swaim:
Episode Timestamps:
8:23 – Political activism
The topic of how to view the state theologically will always be relevant
The state takes up more and more conversation time
The temptation to put forward an agenda is always present
It’s fruitless to do things through the state; look at the history
Let’s give Jesus a try
The kingdom of God should be a parallel society
It is incompatible with the state
Voting is legitimizing the state
Using the state to bring social change feeds the beast
If rejecting God is not a sin, then what is?
18:45 – Who is Jordan Swain?
Lives in Calgary, Canada
Was in social services until the vaccine mandates came
Became a carpet and furniture cleaning technician
It’s inappropriate for your employer to tell you what pharmaceutical products to consume
Side jobs and a production company
Married with two kids
25:27 – Canada
The government doesn’t require vaccine mandates any longer
But businesses are allowed to require vaccines in their employees
More open than the US
There are zero restrictions for entering Canada
The trucker protest had a significant impact
The new trucker restrictions were completely absurd
Every time the Trudeau government brought in restrictions their popularity gained
Trudeau ran a nasty campaign maligning the unvaccinated with absurd claims
At this point, it would be more respectable to admit to getting things wrong than going silent over covid
Vaccines were a failure
Ed Dowd: Epidemic of Sudden Deaths
The data says there are more young people dying on sports fields
The trucker convoy was wildly long
The largest civil disobedience protest in Canada’s history
Within 6 weeks the majority of restrictions were ended or announced to be ending soon
Media coverage tries to deny it had any impact on the restrictions
The Intransient Minority
You don’t need a majority of people to agree with something you just need 5% of people who refuse to go along with what they are told
Nassim Nicholas Taleb: The Black Swan
Organizers of the trucking convoy have been jailed
45:01 – Peaceful responses versus violent responses
More often than not a peaceful response is more effective
Erica Chenoweth: Why Civil Disobedience Works
The data proves peaceful protests are more successful
Revolution often brings worse rulers than the existing ones
Russian Revolution
You can make a case for justified violence but don’t assume you will achieve the desired outcomes
Violence spreads and intensifies
Society is propped up by the implicit threat of violent
This legitimizes violence
Violence is difficult to control, so dangerous to start
When JFK was trying to eliminate the Mafia they were just trying to get rid of the competition
Gandhi’s first act of civil disobedience was refusing to leave the seat he had paid for on a train
From there he developed his theory
You can’t get too hung up on the cult of personality surrounding heroes
Until white people saw peaceful protesters being hosed by government thugs they couldn’t understand or support what Martin Luther King’s people were going through
The trucking convoy was the demarcation line of when things started to get better
We had the data but the second round of lockdowns came
The hysteria around the virus was intense
Like something out of a movie
We have the ability to empower one another
We outnumber the police and politicians
We only need a small minority, the intransient minority
1:12:13 – The church’s response to covid
Jesus was the supreme disobedient human being
Pastor Tim Stevens was arrested for not complying with mandates
You should decide early at what point you will refuse to comply with the government
There is a good possibility that the government will push you to sin at some point
We are capable of doing things that we know are completely wrong
Craig doesn’t trust the church since covid
Why do you need to be involved in a church?
Spiritual community and participation without hierarchy, even if it is not in a church building is enough
It's tough to find people to connect with in a church hierarchy
Church signs that say “If you have proof of vaccination, you’re welcome” are infuriating
You cannot turn people away based on the pharmaceutical they consume
It looks too much like the way the state acted
The amount of people attending churches post-covid is still lagging even though the restrictions are gone
Related Episodes
Related Blog Post
