What does Christianity look like to a non-Christian? How does the secular world view Christian involvement in politics? Craig and Abby Cleckner(well know Bad Roman Christian-Anarchist) sit down with Nick and Josh(self-proclaimed atheist, who come with a mix of libertarian and socialists political views) to discuss faith, the state, and the mixed messages they see from Christians when these two worlds collide. In a true demonstration of how to have a civil conversation, we invite you to join us, from whatever political or faith background you may hail from, to keep asking questions and having hard conversations, especially with those you may assume you disagree with. Maybe God gave us atheists so we never stop asking questions in a pursuit to follow Christ.

Timestamps and Starting Points:

00:22 Episode Intro - What does christianity look like from a non Christian perspective? 

01:28 Josh’s Background

•  Atheist

•  Studies Mathematics at graduate level, undergrad in Physics 

• Libertarian/socialist political views

2:06 Nick’s Background

•  Atheist

• Socialist(technically)

• Non-religious background

3:48 Fundamental opposition to Christianity itself or how Christians behave vs. what they claim to believe?

• Josh’s background with Christianity and religion

  • Science and religion

  • Difference of geography

  • Christian believers and Islamic believers devoutness is the same

  • Poison of religious beliefs in politics

  • “Going to hell for voting for a democrat”

• Nick’s experience with religion

  • Never brought up with the Bible, has not read the entire things

  • Christians seem to not care about Bible in way they act

  • Told he was going to hell the one time he went to church

  • Fear based religion contradicts with idea of “loving God”

13:27 In John 3:6 Jesus says “if you do not remain in me you are like a branch that is withered, such branches are picked up thrown into the fire and burned” - is that not aggressive from a pacifist stance?

• Diversity in Christian Belief, we read the Bible with baggage

• Bible uses hyperbole

• Jesus never said to subscribe to certain beliefs, but to follow him and how he treats people. If you try to rule over them you will experience being “cast out like a branch”

16:55  Abby and Craig’s stance on scientific knowledge, how does it affect your views? 

• Craig keeps it simple, follow Christ is the best he can do

• Abby - the bible is not a scientific document, but science can have religious elements.

  • As anarchist, money for science comes from government which is a contention

21:18 How has Josh’s understanding of science discount the existence of God, why couldn't he be the one who generated the science? 

•  No physical/natural evidence for God

• Perfectly ok imagining God as the master mathematician

• Cannot accept monotheistic view of something that can be a part of the natural world, but also not be

24:02  Mythology & Religion

• Means to explain the unknown(pre-science and pre/within religion)

• Search for simple pleasant answer

28:13 Science is always pitted against religion, but are the two really opposed?

• People have different levels of need for certainty

• It is important to keep asking questions on both sides 

• Religion ask us to follow faith, feelings/belief, to be accepted, while science requires replicable evidence before it is accepted as knowledge 

33:57 Christians and Government 

• Josh - very hypocritical, evangelical shouting

• Nick - sickened on every level by the hypocrisy and lack of empathy for fellow man, amplified even more in evangelical movements

• Praying for votes?

• Equating Trump as chosen by God and America as doomed by his defeat

• The Rapture

39:18 Fear based gospel & the evangelical love for Trump

• Franklin Graham

• Early church and the state

• What does God care about? 

• Romans 13 

41:28 If Christians were not being hypocritical how would they act in the political realm?

• Josh- Government would tend toward a secular system if beliefs were “checked at door” and there would be no issue. The problem begins when a narrow view from the Bible is imposed on laws today.

• Nick - when Christians get into gov’t it’s their rights above all others, which seems to be in bad faith, when rhetoric of the evangelical base seems hate filled.

• Where were the evangelicals speaking out against kids in cages?

44:57 Christians need to understand the Republican party is not pro-life or Liberty

• Why do they care more about fetuses than people who are already alive?

• Never ending wars? 

47:17 Donald Trump is more akin to the antiChrist

• Trump “I never had a reason to ask for forgiveness”

• Is he what Christians actually stand for vs. what they proclaim to stand for?

53:11 People raised in the mindset of all powerful God, adopt a very top-down authoritarian worldview, does this prime these future voters to fall for someone like Trump?

• Mass incarceration, uncountable amount of laws, need for authority

• Theocracy is equally unsettling  

• Avoiding extreme positions, forgetting the nuances - math and life

• Thought crime

• Authoritarian political candidates and authoritarian view of religion

58:10 Is there Hell?

• Universalist Ideal

• Hell is an experience we have in life not eternal torment

• Jewish Mysticism - Kabbalah and Hell

• Worshiping the Bible vs. Jesus

1:01:46 Is the Bible the word of God or translation from others?

• The bible is a translation and collection of stories written by multiple people

• Just follow Jesus

• We are not going to full understand it in today's terms because of its origin

1:03:15  Dangers of having multiple interpretations of the BIble - is this the reason why it needs to be out of politics and why we need some level of secular governance?

• “The evangelical vote”

• Josh - don’t we need government to do some level of things

  • Markets can be forms/sources of authoritarianism?

    • Free market - Libertarian right, eco-libertarian, anarcho-capitalist

      • Monopolies that suppress rights of people

  • Abby - not possible without gov’t support to get Barons of industry, we don’t have true competition in the market because of regulations stopping it

1:07:15 The freer the market the freer the people?

• Josh - market is a tool, in some circles the market becomes the government

  • Things like climate change or harmful products require some kind of oversight to remove dangerous things from being freely traded

• Clear Patterson - geochemist, discovered age of earth and that lead content in water/atmosphere was toxic

• Are oil companies the market? No, because it is controlled by the government, not a free market.

 1:11:05 What can Christians do differently to make non-christians be non-resentful towards Christains? 

• Nick - Christianity is too far gone? 

• Religion vs. Christianity 

• Why Craig is not a big fan or religion anymore 

• Josh - ignoring science in facts is where he loses them, if in any sort of public entity that has to be checked at the door 

• Morality can not be legislated

11:16:16 Outsourcing morality to the state, Is the state evil?

• Nick - tries to be cautious of notions of good vs. evil to avoid black and white dichotomy.

  • Bigger issue is our system is broken on almost every level

  • We all have our individual ideas but putting them into action is what's difficult

  • Is there a system now that truly benefits everyone?

•  Can you change the mafia from the inside?

•  Josh - saying all government does is evil ignores success of government, it is a tool that can be used both for “evil” and “good”; government meaning a collection of people who have come together to navigate something

• Abby - initiating violence is never permissible

1:21:23 Violence by government - what do we define as violence? 

• Josh - harming human beings is violence or but being taxed?

• Craig - majority of taxes go to military to kill people we will never meet in our lives

• Voluntary Taxation Systems - base taxes then option to choose where your tax portion goes

1:24:18 Majority of Christians celebrate war

• Blind patriotism - weird sense of freedom

• Care more about soldiers who have died than those who come back injured

1:29:57 American exceptionalism & Christianity

• God created everybody

• Being a living God means he doesn’t control anything

• Can’t pray cancer away with enough faith

• Story of three boats

1:33:21 Prosperity Gospel - televangelist - the people who exploit people’s faith and profit

1:36:14 Be a Cheerful giver - Doctrines and Children

• Science must exist in free system

• How can a Christian grow in their faith without questioning what is going on? 

 1:39:39 Josh’s Plug’s

• Articles at universe today Josh Campbell

• Journey to the Stars